The Greeks, the greatest Warriors in WWII?

[Sunforged General]

Would you agree that of all the combatants who fought in the second great war, the Greeks, pound for pound, had more fight in them than soldiers from any other nation? (Second place would go to the Finns).


"For the sake of historical truth I must verify that only the Greeks, of all the adversaries who confronted us, fought with bold courage and highest disregard of death." - Adolf Hitler

"If there had not been the virtue and courage of the Greeks, we do not know which the outcome of World War II would have been." - Winston Churchill

"The magnificent struggle of Greece, was the first big turn of WWII"- George VI, King of Great Britain 1936-1952

"I am sorry because I am getting old and I shall not live long to thank the Greek People, whose resistance decided WWII." - Joseph Stalin

"I am unable to give the proper breadth of gratitude I feel for the heroic resistance of the People and the leaders of Greece." - Charles de Gaul

"On the 28th of October 1940 Greece was given a deadline of three hours to decide on war or peace but even if a three day or three week or three year were given, the response would have been the same. The Greeks taught dignity throughout the centuries. When the entire world had lost all hope, the Greek people dared to question the invincibility of the German monster raising against it the proud spirit of freedom." - Franklin D. Roosevelt

DURATION OF RESISTANCE VS GERMANY/AXIS (in days):
Greece 219
Norway 61
France 43 (a great power at the time)
Poland 30
Belgium 18
Holland 4
Yugoslavia 3
Denmark 0 (The Danes surrendered to Hitler's motorcyclist who was conveying Hitler's request to the Danish king for the crossing of the German armies. The
Danish king indicating submission surrendered his crown to the motorcyclist)
Czechoslovakia 0
Luxenburg 0

 

[bz249]

Would you agree that of all the combatants who fought in the second great war, the Greeks, pound for pound, had more fight in them than soldiers from any other nation? (Second place would go to the Finns).

Yep successfully defending and somewhat successfully counterattacking against a numerically inferior and badly supplied Italian army... because once the Wehrmacht was committed (6th of April) it was done quite fast.

BTW: in your list the Ethiopian Empire should be the first since they resisted the Axis for 400+ days

 

[Sunforged General]

Yep successfully defending and somewhat successfully counterattacking against a numerically inferior and badly supplied Italian army... because once the Wehrmacht was committed (6th of April) it was done quite fast.

BTW: in your list the Ethiopian Empire should be the first since they resisted the Axis for 400+ days

What? The Italians had 565,000 men, 463 aircraft, 163 tanks.
Greece had 430,000 men, 20 tanks, no aircraft. Not to mention, when the Germans got involved, the Total axis forces involved jumped to 1,245,000 men, 1163 aircraft, 1363 tanks. Once the Germans got involved, it still took longer than invasion of France to finish the Greeks off, despite the fact that the Italians had been fighting them for many months. Germany got involved in April 6th, Greece was not fully taken until June 1st. The point from which Germany got involved, to where the Greeks were defeated, is more days than the battle of France took.

 

[olm]

I don't think anyone denies that Greeks punched above their weight class or that France performed far below expectations, but metrics you are using are fairly meaningless. Resisting extremely poorly planned and organized Italian invasion is not comparable to being hit with main German thrust like happened to Belgium. You are also ignoring British support, while Greeks indeed had hardly any air force, RAF deployed to Greece fairly early in campaign. Also only thing stopping Wehrmacht from waltzing straight into Crete was the Royal Navy etc. That said, obviously Greeks still have very good reasons to be proud over their performance.

 

[Sunforged General]

I don't think anyone denies that Greeks punched above their weight class or that France performed far below expectations, but metrics you are using are fairly meaningless. Resisting extremely poorly planned and organized Italian invasion is not comparable to being hit with main German thrust like happened to Belgium. You are also ignoring British support, while Greeks indeed had hardly any air force, RAF deployed to Greece fairly early in campaign. Also only thing stopping Wehrmacht from waltzing straight into Crete was the Royal Navy etc. That said, obviously Greeks still have very good reasons to be proud over their performance.

What of everyone from Hitler to Stalin, Churchill to FDR, to the King of England and Charles De Gaule singing the praises of the Greeks. No one else seems to have this honor. Churchill outright says without the Heroism of the Greeks, the war might be lost. Stalin says the same thing.

 

[viale]

All of them were courting their side in the Greek resistance. You do know Greece fell into civil war right after WW2 ended right? with communists on one side and US/UK backed forces on the other side. So praising the Greek resistance is also a way of gaining favor with your side in that conflict. No doubt, the Greeks fought well, but this was also a "battle-ground" nation between the two rising blocks emerging from the Nazis' defeat.
Stalin would be thrilled to have a warzaw-pact country in the Mediterranean and the UK would love to keep that sea as their own lake.

 

[viale]

Oh, and if that quote by Hitler is true. I don't doubt it is due to leeching off of the Greek heritage vis-a-vis the western world. I imagine he would see himself as a Spartan defender against the eastern hordes led by Xerxes/Stalin. And Plato's "Republic" is a pretty good foundation for a fascist state, with the increased benefit of saying the ancient Greeks thought it up, so therefore its good.

 

[Pyoro]

Why aren't the Russians on top of that list? They actually won.

Anyway, I'd agree with everyone else that those statements need to be seen as political, and also as ideological. Birthplace of Western culture and all that; had some appeal even to the Nazis. Meanwhile others might have kicked their arses but never got any acknowledgment for it 'cause it just didn't fit their worldview. It's what it is.

 

[Sunforged General]

Why aren't the Russians on top of that list? They actually won.

Anyway, I'd agree with everyone else that those statements need to be seen as political, and also as ideological. Birthplace of Western culture and all that; had some appeal even to the Nazis. Meanwhile others might have kicked their arses but never got any acknowledgment for it 'cause it just didn't fit their worldview. It's what it is.

I'm sure some ideology played into it, as well as some politics, but I'm not comfortable underselling the Greeks. The Italians had near air supremacy. Much of the RAF was to be kept on the British isles.

 

[viale]

I'm sure some ideology played into it, as well as some politics, but I'm not comfortable underselling the Greeks. The Italians had near air supremacy. Much of the RAF was to be kept on the British isles.

No one is underselling the Greeks, we're mostly countering your overselling them. Look at your thread title, and what you use to back it up with. Propagandist quotes from politicians and a terrible list. That is a rather poor basis for saying someone is the greatest

 

[Sunforged General]

No one is underselling the Greeks, we're mostly countering your overselling them. Look at your thread title, and what you use to back it up with. Propagandist quotes from politicians and a terrible list. That is a rather poor basis for saying someone is the greatest

Lol, I'm sorry if national leaders from the allies, axis, and communist bloc are not a good enough source for you. Even when they are enemies and still corroborate each others stories. I'm not quite sure how to get you a higher quote, one from God perhaps? Hah, I jest. But how is the list terrible? The amount of days for each nation to fall is approximately correct.

Also your claim that the quotes are just propaganda is dubious at best. There is no evidence that any of these quotes were broadcast to the Greek factions during the civil war there. There is no apparent motive for those leaders to make those statements, other than to give credit where credit is due.

 

[fr-rein]

Why aren't the Russians on top of that list? They actually won.

First of all, Soviets.

Secondly, they lost multiple Frances in territory (and comparable in population) and a full-fledged Front of 5 million people, multiple Armies in 1941.

Sure, we can say that they fought their way back, but then we can't judge French for losing in 1940 since later they came back in war and won, or we have to evaluate Polish partisan Armies and so on. It is mostly a strategic advantage that let Soviets to overcome issues that led to French or Polish defeats.

Lastly, I would personally say that Finns were best pound-to-pound. No, not only because of Winter War, but because of how they valued their soldiers as well and held into really important for them things and even peaced out before they could be defeated as non-soviet country. A country which valued lives of their people and soldiers most.

 

[Herbert West]

Days of resistance means jack all.
You conveniently left out, too, that those countries that surrendered quickly surrendered to the German Army, not the italian one. Once the germans got involved in Greece, their resistance time was comparable.

Second, what you should be looking at is a sort of K/D ratio, aka man for man, how good were the greeks at killing their fellow men. They were better than the italians involved in the campaign (similar numbers of killed and wounded, with POW to tip the scales), and, naturally, got rolfstomped by the germans.

 

[Sunforged General]

Days of resistance means jack all.
You conveniently left out, too, that those countries that surrendered quickly surrendered to the German Army, not the italian one. Once the germans got involved in Greece, their resistance time was comparable.

Second, what you should be looking at is a sort of K/D ratio, aka man for man, how good were the greeks at killing their fellow men. They were better than the italians involved in the campaign (similar numbers of killed and wounded, with POW to tip the scales), and, naturally, got rolfstomped by the germans.

And that is where you are wrong. The day from when the Germans got involved, to the day Greece was completely taken, was still longer than the amount of time it took to take France, which at the time was a major power and had British help, another major power. Then you have the Hitler quote, where he states outright that the Greeks were the most courageous and fearless fighters they had faced.

It is not a roflstomp when a tiny country puts up more of a fight than 2 world powers combined.

 

[bz249]

Days of resistance means jack all.
You conveniently left out, too, that those countries that surrendered quickly surrendered to the German Army, not the italian one. Once the germans got involved in Greece, their resistance time was comparable.

Second, what you should be looking at is a sort of K/D ratio, aka man for man, how good were the greeks at killing their fellow men. They were better than the italians involved in the campaign (similar numbers of killed and wounded, with POW to tip the scales), and, naturally, got rolfstomped by the germans.

Ok in defense of the Greeks: when the Germans a good portion of their army was in Albania (because they did not want to give up conquered territories on a falsely interpreted pride)... but then again there were other factors hindering the performance of the Belgian or the Polish or even the Danes.

 

[Easy-Kill]

DURATION OF RESISTANCE VS GERMANY/AXIS (in days):
Greece 219
Norway 61
France 43 (a great power at the time)
Poland 30
Belgium 18
Holland 4
Yugoslavia 3
Denmark 0 (The Danes surrendered to Hitler's motorcyclist who was conveying Hitler's request to the Danish king for the crossing of the German armies. The
Danish king indicating submission surrendered his crown to the motorcyclist)
Czechoslovakia 0
Luxenburg 0

You conveniently forget that the Nepalese resisted Germany for far longer. They declared war on the 4th September 1939 and managed to resist German aggression until ultimate victory came in 1945. Clearly they are pound for pound better warriors than those lazy Greeks who only resisted for a 219 days!

 

[Sunforged General]

You conveniently forget that the Nepalese resisted Germany for far longer. They declared war on the 4th September 1939 and managed to resist German aggression until ultimate victory came in 1939. Clearly they are pound for pound better warriors than those lazy Greeks who only resisted for a 219 days!

The Greeks were planning an offensive to trap the entire Italian army in Albania without a port back home, if the Germans hadn't stepped in, the Italians would be facing a disaster on the Level of Soviet losses during 1941. You conveniently left out that this would compete with the encirclement at Kiev for the largest encirclement/entrapment in military history.

 

[Easy-Kill]

The Greeks were planning an offensive to trap the entire Italian army in Albania without a port back home, if the Germans hadn't stepped in, the Italians would be facing a disaster on the Level of Soviet losses during 1941. You conveniently left out that this would compete with the encirclement at Kiev for the largest encirclement/entrapment in military history.

Apologies, I will try to remember to add speculations and what ifs to my assessment of the fierceness of Nepalese soldiers. 13 Nepalese soldiers won the VC in ww2 ... Did any Greek soldiers win the VC? I don't think so.

Maybe if they had resisted a little longer or completed the encirclement, they would have received plentiful VCs.

 

[bz249]

Apologies, I will try to remember to add speculations and what ifs to my assessment of the fierceness of Nepalese soldiers. 13 Nepalese soldiers won the VC in ww2 ... Did any Greek soldiers win the VC? I don't think so.

Maybe if they had resisted a little longer or completed the encirclement, they would have received plentiful VCs.

And how many Hero of the Soviet Union was won by Nepalese? Because the French won a few, e.g:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roland_de_la_Poype

 

[Graf Zeppelin]

They declared war on the 4th September 1939 and managed to resist German aggression until ultimate victory came in 1939.

Badass