Did they really withhold tanks on D-Day because Hitler was sleeping?

[Kovax]

From what I recall reading, several of the generals expressed the opinion that the plan either needed to be executed immediately, or not at all. The plan was then delayed, and the Soviets kept building up forces in the area, leaving the German generals in question with a feeling of dread, like some impending disaster that they can't avoid. German intelligence was woefully inadequate at that stage (most of the fuel previously allocated to reconnaissance flights was being saved for other things), but what little info they did get was making the whole plan look like a bad idea. They had no authority to stop it, however, and the operation was launched despite glaring signs that the Soviets were expecting and prepared for it.

Other generals were of the opinion that waiting would gain nothing, so it was better to toss the dice and hope for a miracle, rather than wait for the Soviets to out-produce Germany and attack at a place and time of their own choosing.

 

[bz249]

From what I recall reading, several of the generals expressed the opinion that the plan either needed to be executed immediately, or not at all. The plan was then delayed, and the Soviets kept building up forces in the area, leaving the German generals in question with a feeling of dread, like some impending disaster that they can't avoid. German intelligence was woefully inadequate at that stage (most of the fuel previously allocated to reconnaissance flights was being saved for other things), but what little info they did get was making the whole plan look like a bad idea. They had no authority to stop it, however, and the operation was launched despite glaring signs that the Soviets were expecting and prepared for it.

Other generals were of the opinion that waiting would gain nothing, so it was better to toss the dice and hope for a miracle, rather than wait for the Soviets to out-produce Germany and attack at a place and time of their own choosing.

It is interesting that Zitadelle as it happened was probably still close to optimum result for the Germans. The Soviets delayed their attack till July (and based on the strategic mobility of the Germans it is highly questionable whether they could operate effectively on the defense) and the actual battle was as good on the casualty rates as it can be any battle against an enemy with manpower and material superiority.
On the minus side they lost their strategic reserve thus Soviet offensives could be bold from none as they do not have to fear the consequences of outrunning their supply. (apart from rare flukes like the Debrecen tank battle)

 

[Dina1954]

It is interesting that Zitadelle as it happened was probably still close to optimum result for the Germans. The Soviets delayed their attack till July (and based on the strategic mobility of the Germans it is highly questionable whether they could operate effectively on the defense) and the actual battle was as good on the casualty rates as it can be any battle against an enemy with manpower and material superiority.
On the minus side they lost their strategic reserve thus Soviet offensives could be bold from none as they do not have to fear the consequences of outrunning their supply. (apart from rare flukes like the Debrecen tank battle)

Well I think the plane was domed from the begining.The Russiann knew the day the attack should start and the ratio about both sides strenght was for men 1-2,7 for tanks 1-2,3 and for guns 1-5,1. If you will attack an enemy the ratio should be 3-1 and not the figures that was in Kursk.

 

[Acheron]

It is generally a bad sign if a battle is started with artillery barrages by the defender, no?
Anyone heard an idea being floated of attacking the Kursk salient not on the flanks but frontally, on account of defenses being much weaker there?

 

[Andre Bolkonsky]

Hitler's logic on the delay was his love of wonderweapons. If he could only push enough of the new super-heavy tanks into one fist, they'd smash through anything Stalin put in front of him. Production and shipping take time, and God forbid you field test the new supertank before rushing it into the front line to surprise our foes. So hold your horses, General, we will tell you when you have enough weapons to fight!

 

[Kovax]

So hold your horses, General, we will tell you when you have enough weapons to fight!

….and better not waste that precious fuel on recon flights and other frivolities, you'll need it for those wunderwaffen we'll be sending you soon.

 

[Cavalry]

It is generally a bad sign if a battle is started with artillery barrages by the defender, no?
Anyone heard an idea being floated of attacking the Kursk salient not on the flanks but frontally, on account of defenses being much weaker there?

Attack frontally would not get the wanted result, that is to encircle and destroy big amount of enemy.

Waiting and counter attack seem the best thing to do for the Germans.

 

[Acheron]

Attack frontally would not get the wanted result, that is to encircle and destroy big amount of enemy.

Encircle, no, but maybe destroy. IIRC, the Red Army was concentrating up to 40% of its strength in the salient, if these forces could be taken by surprise, maybe an overrun could have been achieved?

 

[Yakman]

Right, that makes more sense.

But the way the documentaries say it... that the tanks couldn't roll without express orders from the man himself, and nobody dared wake him up... it kind of paints a picture of the Germans being basically assured of victory, only for the blundering fool Hitler being asleep and his staff too terrified of him to wake him up.

So what precisely happened when he DID wake up? What orders were given? Don't move because this is just a diversion?

he probably wanted something for the hangover, a bit of a pick-me-up to get going, and something to settle his nerves.

all at once.

 

[DukeDayve]

he probably wanted something for the hangover, a bit of a pick-me-up to get going, and something to settle his nerves.

all at once.

So would I if I were hooked on cocaine, losing a war on two fronts, living with the knowledge that I'm responsible for around 50 million deaths, a vegetarian and only sleeping a few hours a day. Sounds absolutely miserable. Though I could probably still find some pleasure in life provided I had a PC with an internet connection and my STEAM library.

Anyhow I heard something interesting the other day, that the French resistance had done so much damage to the railway system that it took the Das Reich division 18 days to reach the fighting in Normady when it should've only taken them two or three.

Where were the tanks on D-Day? Were they close enough to roll into action on their own tracks or stationed far enough away that they had to be transported on trains? If it's the latter that might also play a part.

 

[Dina1954]

So would I if I were hooked on cocaine, losing a war on two fronts, living with the knowledge that I'm responsible for around 50 million deaths, a vegetarian and only sleeping a few hours a day. Sounds absolutely miserable. Though I could probably still find some pleasure in life provided I had a PC with an internet connection and my STEAM library.

Anyhow I heard something interesting the other day, that the French resistance had done so much damage to the railway system that it took the Das Reich division 18 days to reach the fighting in Normady when it should've only taken them two or three.

Where were the tanks on D-Day? Were they close enough to roll into action on their own tracks or stationed far enough away that they had to be transported on trains? If it's the latter that might also play a part.

If they roll in action on the beaches they will be smashed by naval artillery and fighter bombers.

 

[Yakman]

Hitler's logic on the delay was his love of wonderweapons. If he could only push enough of the new super-heavy tanks into one fist, they'd smash through anything Stalin put in front of him. Production and shipping take time, and God forbid you field test the new supertank before rushing it into the front line to surprise our foes. So hold your horses, General, we will tell you when you have enough weapons to fight!

'logic'

at this point, as you mentioned, he was 'medicated' to the point of insensibility.

alas for us all.

 

[Cavalry]

Where were the tanks on D-Day? Were they close enough to roll into action on their own tracks or stationed far enough away that they had to be transported on trains? If it's the latter that might also play a part.

On G map, Calaise- Caen flying distance is 160 miles (250 km), on road it is about 400km on 2019 road, that can take days with paratroops and partisan activities and day bombing.
Of course the Allies had plan to deal with them if they came.

 

[Gil galad]

So would I if I were hooked on cocaine, losing a war on two fronts, living with the knowledge that I'm responsible for around 50 million deaths, a vegetarian and only sleeping a few hours a day. Sounds absolutely miserable. Though I could probably still find some pleasure in life provided I had a PC with an internet connection and my STEAM library.

Anyhow I heard something interesting the other day, that the French resistance had done so much damage to the railway system that it took the Das Reich division 18 days to reach the fighting in Normady when it should've only taken them two or three.

Where were the tanks on D-Day? Were they close enough to roll into action on their own tracks or stationed far enough away that they had to be transported on trains? If it's the latter that might also play a part.

The French resistance played their part. But the allied 'transportation plan' which destroyed the french infrastructure surrounding Normandy was the main reason German troop movements where so slow.

 

[Baron Jukaga]

While we shouldn't underestimate the moral effect brought on by air attacks, actual destruction of tanks by fighter bombers was minimal. Only a few percent of the total numbers lost. The Raf came to this conclusion researching the effect of air attacks in the aftermath of the battle of the falaise pocket.

I was going to bring this up as well, Military History Visualized has a great video on this subject. If I were to make a guess, I'd say most of the damage by CAS on tanks was really to their support infrastructure; the fuel bowsers, small bridges and the like. So many of the German 'knocked out' tanks on the roadside we see in pictures had run out of gas, broken down from lack of spare parts or had a track knocked off from a near miss rocket strike.

 

[DukeDayve]

I saw another video recently about D-Day from the German perspective, what they knew on the day and in the days afterwards. Puts things better into perspective. I guess when you spend your whole life watching and reading about D-Day with hindsight on your side, with the precise knowledge of all the planning and the main objectives behind it, it's easy to forget that the Germans only knew what they knew from the chaotic and frantic reports coming in.

I don't need to guess what the allies are doing - their exact plan is burned into my brain from decades of watching documentaries, reading about it and playing games. The Germans on the other hand do need to guess. They need to wait a suitable amount of time, collect reports of how the frontlines have evolved, look at all of their information (some of which may be faulty), and try to deduce what the hell is going on.

I am quite confident now though that the reason the Germans didn't smash the allies with Tanks WASN'T because Hitler was asleep and his aides were too scared to wake him up. Probably more of a combination of:

1. Is this the main attack?

2. What about that other enormous buildup of armies ready to hit Calais? (the fake army the allies created to fool Germany)

3. Railways are all broken because of the French resistance. Bloody French, they ruined France they did!

4. All our trucks full of fuel and spare parts for the tanks get air striked if they try to move in daylight.

5. We can't replace these vital machines easily, we must be absolutely 100% certain we're using them to attack at the right time in the right place where they will have the most effect.

And so forth.

 

[Cavalry]

It is interesting that Rommel once said German need to beat the Allies on the beach and prevent landing, the first 24 hours is crucial. How about giving 2 tanks to each local beach. It seems that there was no Germans tank on the beach on any movies.

 

[Ming]

How about giving 2 tanks to each local beach. It seems that there was no Germans tank on the beach on any movies.

That was France's strategy in 1940. While an idea that I wouldn't mind seeing simulated/gamed out, in theory the beach fortifications should be able to give that level of defensive firepower for much less investment and without sacrificing your Mobile reserves.

 

[Henry IX]

It is interesting that Rommel once said German need to beat the Allies on the beach and prevent landing, the first 24 hours is crucial. How about giving 2 tanks to each local beach. It seems that there was no Germans tank on the beach on any movies.

Two tanks is a speedbump. Once their location is determined they can be destroyed by naval gunfire, air attack or man-portable AT weapons (bazookas, PIATs etc). While with hindsight that may have been better than what actually happened (virtually no tanks showed up for the critical early stages) it was always a losing strategy.

 

[DukeDayve]

It is interesting that Rommel once said German need to beat the Allies on the beach and prevent landing, the first 24 hours is crucial. How about giving 2 tanks to each local beach. It seems that there was no Germans tank on the beach on any movies.

I do recall seeing a German soldier speaking (as an old man) on a documentary I watched as a teen. I forget which it was because I watched so many, but what he said stuck with me. Talking about the naval bombardment that hit the coast before the infantry did, he said the force of the blasts flipped tanks over and rendered them useless.

Perhaps they did have a handful of tanks close behind the main fortifications on the day itself.