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Yes indeed.
That said I find such discussions exhausting/pointless and wont participate anymore. Its all speculation, nothing can be proven and noone will be convinced.
You are free to stop participating, of course - but all the people in the discussion got their opinions based on what they read and heard; it follows that people can be convinced, since noone is born with an opinion on 'should France have fought on in WW2 rather than going the Vichy route'.
 
You are free to stop participating, of course - but all the people in the discussion got their opinions based on what they read and heard; it follows that people can be convinced, since noone is born with an opinion on 'should France have fought on in WW2 rather than going the Vichy route'.
Speculation again :p
 
I would like to add on why I think it might not benefit France militarily to continue fighting from the colonial empire in an union with the UK. Given how determined a part of the French elites were to end the war, and that they had opposed it in the first place, they would have defected regardless of whether or not Pétain had received plenipotentiary powers, which would naturally had a negative impact for the Franco-British union. This is all speculation of course, but completely counting out the antisemites and Hitler sympathisers in amongst the French military is clearly to construct an ideal alternative reality.
 
Fully agreed, in 1940 we only know that with Pétain Jews, homosexuals, communists, socialists, trade unionists, and any other one not desirable in the society of Hitler, risk death due to the armistice. We also know that French workforce can be sent to work camps as hostages.

No... it is due to the military defeat and the subsequent occupation of France. The Germans can do whatever they want irrespective of the armistice.
 
No... it is due to the military defeat and the subsequent occupation of France. The Germans can do whatever they want irrespective of the armistice.
The armistice means the Germans get help to do it across the whole country. Before the armistice they did not have control over the whole of France. Those are facts, as shown by the military map posted above.
 
The armistice means the Germans get help to do it across the whole country. Before the armistice they did not have control over the whole of France. Those are facts, as shown by the military map posted above.

Do you really think that the Police of Marseille is going to stop the Wehrmacht at that stage?
 
So did Vichy France just not exist in your mind, or do you think it was a Reichkomissariat?
Its status changed over time, although all evidence tells us Pétain himself was fully committed to the antisemite cause and constituted a regime to his liking, so in terms of death camps and labour camps there is little difference with direct occupation.
Do you really think that the Police of Marseille is going to stop the Wehrmacht at that stage?
Those are again speculations, what I stated was not.
 
Its status changed over time, although all evidence tells us Pétain himself was fully committed to the antisemite cause and constituted a regime to his liking, so in terms of death camps and labour camps there is little difference with direct occupation.

Those are again speculations, what I stated was not.

You mean that resistance is collapsed after the Germans broke through the Weygand-line?
 
Continued resistance means that instead of the Germans occupying the country and committing whatever crimes they want, the French army loses hundreds of thousands of troops in a futile gesture, and THEN the Germans occupy the country and commit whatever crimes they want. Big improvement, and a noble gesture of defiance, which is really great, at least if you're somewhere else than in France.

I don't admire Petain in the least, because I think his post-surrender behavior and cooperation with the Germans was contemptible, but the surrender was basically just admitting what was obvious, and ending the senseless slaughter on the battlefields. By that point, his decision very likely had little impact either way on the horrible aftermath. What he did afterward and what happened as a result of that was a different matter, and if you wish to judge him negatively for THAT, then I can't argue with it. I feel that the decision to surrender was a reasonable one at the time it was made, given the knowledge of the situation available at the time.

Sadly, people such as loup99 seem to read a lot more into the "class struggle" aspects of the story than I believe the situation merits, seeing rampant anti-Semitism and racism in the efforts to avoid being looted or killed by the occupiers. In some cases, it existed; in other cases, it only existed in the minds of those who seek to find it, decades after the events, but innocence or guilt seems to be irrelevant when the searchers are using wealth or status of an entire social class, rather than actions of the individuals, as the determining factors.
 
I see him more as an elderly man who didnt wanted more bloodshed and prevented the death of millions of french people by just surrendering to Germany, but i respect and understand your point of view regarding the old man.
That's your prerogative, but it may be good for you to know that this has no foundation in fact.
 
You mean that resistance is collapsed after the Germans broke through the Weygand-line?
Again, I'm making a point about political history rather than military history. Armed resistance to Nazi Germany had not completely collapsed after breaking through the Weygand-line, but if we are to speculate it would probably not have lead to a victory to continue the fighting. Yet to sign an armistice was to give a blank check to Pétain and his allies as well as Nazi Germany, to implement their horrendous policies. That is what we can know without hindsight, at the time it sent that political message, abandoning the population largely to its own faith. Furthermore, we simply don't know what would had happened in the French colonial empire, so there we can only theorise alt-history.

Continued resistance means that instead of the Germans occupying the country and committing whatever crimes they want, the French army loses hundreds of thousands of troops in a futile gesture, and THEN the Germans occupy the country and commit whatever crimes they want. Big improvement, and a noble gesture of defiance, which is really great, at least if you're somewhere else than in France.
Politically it sends the signal of the Republic of France continuing to resist, maybe underground if needed in the metropole, but it shows it is committed to continue fighting until the national territory is liberated. That is the nature of the partial defeat, it was not total since resistance could continue.

I don't admire Petain in the least, because I think his post-surrender behavior and cooperation with the Germans was contemptible, but the surrender was basically just admitting what was obvious, and ending the senseless slaughter on the battlefields. By that point, his decision very likely had little impact either way on the horrible aftermath. What he did afterward and what happened as a result of that was a different matter, and if you wish to judge him negatively for THAT, then I can't argue with it. I feel that the decision to surrender was a reasonable one at the time it was made, given the knowledge of the situation available at the time.
I analyse his decision of it being a means to reach his aims, aims that had already been stated and were rather clear, so you can not strictly say those intentions belong to the aftermath. To me the two are inherently tied given his previous record, which was not ambiguous, provided you stop venerating "the hero of Verdun" and judge the actual man by his political opinions.

Sadly, people such as loup99 seem to read a lot more into the "class struggle" aspects of the story than I believe the situation merits, seeing rampant anti-Semitism and racism in the efforts to avoid being looted or killed by the occupiers. In some cases, it existed; in other cases, it only existed in the minds of those who seek to find it, decades after the events, but innocence or guilt seems to be irrelevant when the searchers are using wealth or status of an entire social class, rather than actions of the individuals, as the determining factors.
I did not attack any entire class, but it is true that the face of collaboration was largely that of the upper bourgeoisie and industrials, to put names on them, since it largely benefited their interests. There is a reason for why the right-wing and the employers in France came out completely discredited of WW2, because while some of them joined the resistance and fought heroically, including a few marginal currents of the far-right, it was largely the Communist Party which was the backbone of the fight, and it was the left in the broader sense that dominated it. Hence the left-wing manifesto called the "Happy days" (Les jours heureux) from the National Council of the Resistance (CNR), implemented after the liberation.
 
Continued resistance means that instead of the Germans occupying the country and committing whatever crimes they want, the French army loses hundreds of thousands of troops in a futile gesture, and THEN the Germans occupy the country and commit whatever crimes they want. Big improvement, and a noble gesture of defiance, which is really great, at least if you're somewhere else than in France.
Hundreds of thousands of troops did die ensuring that Germany didn't dominate France. In this case it happened that they were not French, but from all the nations who made that noble gesture of defiance.
 
I don't think it was ever feasible to hold France by the time of the surrender but that wasn't what the proponent of continuing the fight (like De Gaulle) believed in.

The idea was to evacuate as much soldiers as possible to the colonies (were the German cannot follow) wait for the US to enter the war (as De Gaulle accurately believed twas inevitable) and reconquer the heartlands with the remains of the French army supported by freshly raised colonial troops and additional Anglo-Americans support.

While I can agree that the surrender did save the French much suffering there is an argument to be made that should had France stayed in the war that could have precipitated the German defeat and eventually caused less suffering overall. As a western front could have seriously been considered as early as 1942 or 1943 in such scenario.
 
No, the country to dominate France. By the time Overlord came ww2 was already decided and preaparation for the Cold War was underway.

I think that this would be a whole other discussion ... an derail of the derail so to speak. Perhaps we ought to have that discussion another time :)
 
For me, and I am admittedly no great scholar of WW2, it is Eisenhower. He had to manage not only the largest and most complicated military operation in history, but also the various egos and personalities who made that possible.

For an American to arrive and be given Supreme Command while the British had been fighting for 3 years, and then successively make the commands work, that is an enormous achievement.