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Fulmen

The Finnish History Guy
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Dec 23, 2006
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I'm glad to see Spain get a tree, but I still await a Finnish one. I think it's a great crime against the theme of the game to not represent a country that, at least militarily, accomplished more in WW2 in mere months than the great powers of France and Italy combined did in 6 years (no offense to any French and Italians here, IMO both are great countries with rich histories, they just didn't perform very well in WW2).

Finland in WW2 should and could have been represented in the game since release, even if in just a relatively simple capacity. Many mods have more than proven this possible. Yet over three years later, the Winter War is in the vanilla game in name only, and the Continuation War of 1941-44, which btw is the largest conflict in Nordic history, and the Lapland War of 1944-45, are not in the game in any capacity, not even nominal. This is inexcusable for a product that markets itself as a WW2 grand strategy game.

I don't mean to derail the discussion from Spain, but this is something worth reminding PDX of from time to time.
 
I'm glad to see Spain get a tree, but I still await a Finnish one. I think it's a great crime against the theme of the game to not represent a country that, at least militarily, accomplished more in WW2 in mere months than the great powers of France and Italy combined did in 6 years (no offense to any French and Italians here, IMO both are great countries with rich histories, they just didn't perform very well in WW2).

Finland in WW2 should and could have been represented in the game since release, even if in just a relatively simple capacity. Many mods have more than proven this possible. Yet over three years later, the Winter War is in the vanilla game in name only, and the Continuation War of 1941-44, which btw is the largest conflict in Nordic history, and the Lapland War of 1944-45, are not in the game in any capacity, not even nominal. This is inexcusable for a product that markets itself as a WW2 grand strategy game.

I don't mean to derail the discussion from Spain, but this is something worth reminding PDX of from time to time.

I think that everybody wants a Finnish tree but I think that it should come with Russian rework.

We want PERKELE soviets

And I hope it comes with a terrain rework. Lakes are really disgusting, at least you could cross them (with small divisions) in winter with some maluses
 
If I had a Euro for every time I heard "my country needs a focus tree, they did amazing things yaddayaddayadda"...

Sure, but most minors didn't destroy thousands of tanks and aircraft and cause 600 000 - 1 000 000 KIA. Finland did.

Or let me put it this way: Around 23 European nations took part in WW2. Only three of them did not fall: England, Russia and Finland.

EDIT: I wonder what exactly are people disagreeing with? If it's the statistics, I can tell you that even the official Russian ones, which are almost certainly too low, put the figure at about 500k KIA. E.g. their Winter War statistic, which you can see in the Wikipedia article on the Winter War, is a figure collected in Stalinist Russia during 1949-51, and is very likely missing 100-200k names. Finnish sources put the Russian death toll in the Winter War alone at 270-300k. Add another minimum of 305k from the Continuation War, and you're quickly nearing 600k, and the figure may well be significantly higher than that, hence why I said 600k-1M.
 
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Or let me put it this way: Around 23 European nations took part in WW2. Only three of them did not fall: England, Russia and Finland.

Italy, Bulgaria and Romania technically did not fall, they switched sides ( which is not unlike what Finland did twice which is reaching an agreement with the side that defeated them in battle after all hope of victory was lost ).

I also disagree with your count of 23 because Austria, Czechoslovakia, Denmark, Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania can hardly be said to have fought as nations in WW2 to begin with ( even if the war was fought by other nations on some of their lands ).


My count arrives at a total of 9 nations that fought and fell: France, Benelux, Germany, Hungary, Norway, Greece and Yugoslavia, vs the remaining majority of nations that didn't.

Edit: And Poland for 10 :D
 
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Italy, Bulgaria and Romania technically did not fall, they switched sides ( which is not unlike what Finland did twice which is reaching an agreement with the side that defeated them in battle after all hope of victory was lost ).

I also disagree with your count of 23 because Austria, Czechoslovakia, Denmark, Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania can hardly be said to have fought as nations in WW2 to begin with ( even if the war was fought by other nations on some of their lands ).


My count arrives at a total of 9 nations that fought and fell: France, Benelux, Germany, Hungary, Norway, Greece and Yugoslavia, vs the remaining majority of nations that didn't.

... I think you forgot about someone :p
 
Sure, but most minors didn't destroy thousands of tanks and aircraft and cause 600 000 - 1 000 000 KIA. Finland did.

Or let me put it this way: Around 23 European nations took part in WW2. Only three of them did not fall: England, Russia and Finland.
Finland only "did not fall" because of diplomatic pressure from the Allies and Axis as the country was slowly nearing its limits fighting a much larger enemy. Besides, Soviets merely wanted the area around Leningrad, not to take the whole country. The Soviets still won, albeit a Pyrrhic victory.

As for the KIA, account for the Winter conditions and the Soviet Leadership crippled by the Great Purge. The Great Purge malus is already in game, albeit not as severe as it should be given that USSR AI usually purges day 1, and we should be getting updates regarding Weather and Terrain conditions. Barring the Winter War Finland did not do much in the grand scheme of things.

Not to mention that Finland gets a modifier giving it bonuses on its cores, as an extra buff for Winter War.
They also lost to the Soviets in 1944 and switched sides.
 
Why did Russia attack Finland in the first place? Finland could never be able to threaten Russia militarily. Was it because of Russia wanting better access to the baltic sea?
 
Why did Russia attack Finland in the first place? Finland could never be able to threaten Russia militarily. Was it because of Russia wanting better access to the baltics?
The USSR set up a puppet government headed by Otto Kuusinen, a Finnish communist exile from the civil war in 1918, by December of 1939, right at the start of the winter war.

The intent was nothing less than to seize political control of all of Finland.
 
Why did Russia attack Finland in the first place? Finland could never be able to threaten Russia militarily.
Would that still be true had Finland joined the axis midwar after keeping its border with Leningrad? Taking Karelia left Finland in a very hard-to-defend position in a second war. It's just speculation, but it's likely that the Soviets intended to occupy Finland entirely after using Karelia as a pretext, but the results of the winter war caused them to settle.
 
Why did Russia attack Finland in the first place? Finland could never be able to threaten Russia militarily. Was it because of Russia wanting better access to the baltics?
Soviets wanted to better protect Leningrad as it was a major industrial center and a "City of the Revolution", bearing the name of Lenin, fearing an Axis attack from Finland.
Prior to the attack they even held extensive negotiations with the Finnish government, offering areas in the North in exchange for the area.
 
Italy, Bulgaria and Romania technically did not fall, they switched sides

They were occupied, they fell.

which is not unlike what Finland did which is reaching an agreement with the side that defeated them in battle

Not true at all. It's neither the same, nor was the Finnish military defeated. After defeating the Red Army's Karelian Offensive aimed at a Finnish surrender and subsequent occupation of the country, the FDF in September 1944 was bigger and better armed than it had ever been before. Militarily it was completely possible (and in fact advocated by certain generals) to go on the offensive and recapture the positions lost in June 1944, and then hold out to the next spring in hopes for better peace terms. Would this have been politically wise? Unlikely. Prior to the destruction of the Red Army's Karelian Offensive, Stalin demanded unconditional surrender from Finland. After the last battles ended with yet more Finnish victories in August 1944, Stalin decreased his demands to the 1940 borders + Petsamo, the lease on Hanko was exchanged to Porkkala, and war reparations. Finland saw a chance at exiting the war without occupation and took it. This would have been impossible had the country been defeated in battle.
 
They were occupied, they fell.



Not true at all. It's neither the same, nor was the Finnish military defeated. After defeating the Red Army's Karelian Offensive aimed at a Finnish surrender and subsequent occupation of the country, the FDF in September 1944 was bigger and better armed than it had ever been before. Militarily it was completely possible (and in fact advocated by certain generals) to go on the offensive and recapture the positions lost in June 1944, and then hold out to the next spring in hopes for better peace terms. Would this have been politically wise? Unlikely. Prior to the destruction of the Red Army's Karelian Offensive, Stalin demanded unconditional surrender from Finland. After the last battles ended with yet more Finnish victories in August 1944, Stalin decreased his demands to the 1940 borders + Petsamo, the lease on Hanko was exchanged to Porkkala, and war reparations. Finland saw a chance at exiting the war without occupation and took it. This would have been impossible had the country been defeated in battle.

The Soviets were put under international pressure to laxen their terms, which the Wikipedia(ugh) article acknowledges. Finland accepted them cause they were fighting a losing battle, even though they managed to hold at the time. German aid was also withering away as Soviets were making massive gains thanks to Bagration, which was a contributing factor to the Finns holding on. At that point Finland took the best opportunity it had.
 
Besides, Soviets merely wanted the area around Leningrad, not to take the whole country.

Soviets wanted to better protect Leningrad as it was a major industrial center and a "City of the Revolution", bearing the name of Lenin, fearing an Axis attack from Finland.

"Stalin only wanted to take a bit of land to defend Leningrad" is Stalinist state propaganda and is to anyone who has studied the facts, as obviously false as the official reason by Hitler for invading Poland. Stalin had always wanted to retake the lands of the Russian Empire, and then some, which is the main reason all of Finland was assigned to Russia in the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact in the first place.

Here is a map from an excellent book called The Soviet Plans for the Northwestern Theatre of Operations in 1939-44 written by Ohto Manninen, with this English translation of the original Finnish work being published by the National Defence University of Finland, detailing the objectives of the Russian armies in November 1939 at the start of the Winter War:

EQkAgu3.png


It's also worth mentioning here that on the 29th of November 1939, the Leningrad Military District issued the following order: "When arriving at the borders of Sweden and Norway, these are not to be violated nor are provocations to be tolerated. The soldiers of the Swedish and Norwegian armed forces are to be saluted at the border.".

The Russian goal was the liquidation of Finland as an independent state, incorporating it into the USSR as a part of the Karelo-Finnish SSR, originally the Karelian ASSR, but elevated to the status of SSR, with "Finnish" being added to its name, specifically for this purpose.

Of course since the Red Army failed, Finland continued existing as an independent and democratic state, as it has existed since 1917 (save for a brief period in 1918-19 when full democracy was de facto suspended due to the civil war and subsequent regency).

Speaking of failing, here is the actual progress of the Red Army in the Winter War:

dOTR87e.png


Quite a ways to go to the Swedish border.

Of course Stalin, being a ruthless man with imperialist ambitions, did not give up with the military disaster and threat of Franco-British intervention that forced him to end the Winter War prematurely. Throughout all of the Interim Peace of 1940-41 Russia broke one peace clause after another: Finns were fired upon and kidnapped, a Finnish passenger plane was shot down and its contents looted by a Russian submarine, more land, including entire towns (e.g. the town of Enso), was taken than was agreed to in the peace deal signed in March 1940. Over time the Finns were given more and more demands, ranging from building railroads in conspicuously strategic locations, to handing over a share of the Kolosjoki nickel mine in Petsamo, and so on.

In the fall of 1940 with a build-up of Russian forces on the Finnish border and a serious threat of another Russian invasion, Finland accepted German offers of troop transit rights through Finland to its Norwegian possessions. This brought Finland under Germany's protection. Indeed when Molotov travelled to Berlin in November 1940, the right to "finish the job" with Finland, a dangerous nation of dangerous people, according to Molotov, was the first item on his list of demands to Hitler. Hitler rebuffed Molotov, saying Germany cannot tolerate another war around the Baltic Sea.

BTSDoUD.png


Actually when the Red Army shelled Finnish troops and bombed Finnish cities, towns and ships in June 1941, beginning the Continuation War, they were simply acting on the pre-existing war plan against Finland, pictured above. Of course the Russian ground forces could not fulfill even an attempt at a serious offensive because most forces were being transferred away from the Finnish frontier to face the German invasion.

I have already briefly described the decisive battles of summer 1944 and their aftermath in a previous post, but for the sake of completeness, I'll post one more picture, detailing the movements, and ultimately the destruction at the VKT and U-lines (both of which were incomplete, with the VKT-line fortifications being completely non-existent outside of the Viipuri area), of the Red Army's Karelian Offensive, whose objective was to push deep into Finland and force the unconditional surrender, and thus occupation and Sovietization of the country.

sb6dfFy.png


Apologies for the Finnish in the pictures, I used books I had readily available. Such exact detail on the Finnish front isn't very available in English anyway, particularly online. The images should speak for themselves though.
 
Been busy, so here is a late one.
I will focus on the 4 key problems with your reply.

"Stalin only wanted to take a bit of land to defend Leningrad" is Stalinist state propaganda and is to anyone who has studied the facts, as obviously false as the official reason by Hitler for invading Poland.
"obviously false to anyone who has studied the facts" - small tip, no proper historian uses those terms.

Stalin had always wanted to retake the lands of the Russian Empire, and then some, which is the main reason all of Finland was assigned to Russia in the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact in the first place.
The idea of retaking the lands of the Russian Empire was largely dead after the Russian Civil War, given how they were exhausted, surrounded by enemies and also failed in 1921. As for the M-R pact, there is a whole another discussion there involving the Soviet leadership being desperate to make sure the Nazis did not attack them soon and wanting to secure their borders from potential enemies. Remember, M-R pact only occured after the Allies refused to work with the Soviets to combat them multiple times, heck they even effectively betrayed Czechoslovakia at Munich even though the Soviets offered to send a million troops to defend it(Soviets and C-S had a mutual assistance treaty).

The Russian goal was the liquidation of Finland as an independent state, incorporating it into the USSR as a part of the Karelo-Finnish SSR, originally the Karelian ASSR, but elevated to the status of SSR, with "Finnish" being added to its name, specifically for this purpose.
You are being intentionally misleading. The Karelo-Finnish SSR was only established AFTER the Winter War, to incorporate the gains made. Even the Wiki article you linked there acknowledges it, which seriously makes me question your approach to studying history.

Actually when the Red Army shelled Finnish troops and bombed Finnish cities, towns and ships in June 1941, beginning the Continuation War, they were simply acting on the pre-existing war plan against Finland, pictured above. Of course the Russian ground forces could not fulfill even an attempt at a serious offensive because most forces were being transferred away from the Finnish frontier to face the German invasion.
This is blatantly false. Finland was the one who began the Continuation War with Operation Kilpapuriehdus, militarising the Aland islands in violation of the Aland Treaty of 1921 and arresting Soviet personnel as a way to secure the Baltics from the Soviet Baltic fleet. Not to mention the German troops present in the country, poised to attack.
In fact, the bombing attacks you mentioned, which occured afterwards, were used as propaganda by the Finnish government to portray it as a defensive war.
 
"obviously false to anyone who has studied the facts" - small tip, no proper historian uses those terms.

this is not an argument.

. Remember, M-R pact only occured after the Allies refused to work with the Soviets to combat them multiple times, heck they even effectively betrayed Czechoslovakia at Munich even though the Soviets offered to send a million troops to defend it(Soviets and C-S had a mutual assistance treaty).

and the proof that the MR pact was a defensive posture was the clause that included the soviet occupation of eastern poland and Finland... This is indefensible and pure propaganda.
 
Been busy, so here is a late one.
I will focus on the 4 key problems with your reply.


"obviously false to anyone who has studied the facts" - small tip, no proper historian uses those terms.


The idea of retaking the lands of the Russian Empire was largely dead after the Russian Civil War, given how they were exhausted, surrounded by enemies and also failed in 1921. As for the M-R pact, there is a whole another discussion there involving the Soviet leadership being desperate to make sure the Nazis did not attack them soon and wanting to secure their borders from potential enemies. Remember, M-R pact only occured after the Allies refused to work with the Soviets to combat them multiple times, heck they even effectively betrayed Czechoslovakia at Munich even though the Soviets offered to send a million troops to defend it(Soviets and C-S had a mutual assistance treaty).


You are being intentionally misleading. The Karelo-Finnish SSR was only established AFTER the Winter War, to incorporate the gains made. Even the Wiki article you linked there acknowledges it, which seriously makes me question your approach to studying history.


This is blatantly false. Finland was the one who began the Continuation War with Operation Kilpapuriehdus, militarising the Aland islands in violation of the Aland Treaty of 1921 and arresting Soviet personnel as a way to secure the Baltics from the Soviet Baltic fleet. Not to mention the German troops present in the country, poised to attack.
In fact, the bombing attacks you mentioned, which occured afterwards, were used as propaganda by the Finnish government to portray it as a defensive war.
What wasn't established after the winter war was the Finnish Democratic Republic headed by Otto Wille Kuusinen. That establishment happened in early December of 1939. That arrangement then got liquidated into the Karelo-Finnish SSR in March of 1940, as the USSR settled on a more limited peace that brought fighting to an end in the winter war in March of 1940. Establishing a puppet government while invading a country that had been assigned to them in secret protocol of MR pact, only to liquidate acquired territories into another SSR as the fighting ended, points to that the USSR intended to institute a regime change in Finland.
 
this is not an argument.
If you are honest and confident in your findings you can prove them instead of calling them "obvious to anyone who has studied the facts". This just screams insecurity

and the proof that the MR pact was a defensive posture was the clause that included the soviet occupation of eastern poland and Finland... This is indefensible and pure propaganda.
Context is crucial to understanding the MR pact. The USSR wasn't ready to face the Nazis head-on, as it was suffering from the Great Purge crippling its officer cadre and it was modernizing its military.
The Soviets understood that the Nazis were coming for them, as Hitler was vocal about Lebensraum.
During the 30s many countries signed treaties with Nazi Germany, looking to stave them off or seeing them as a potential ally. From their future allies, to even their bitter enemies, like Poland(non-aggression pact of 1934) and UK(Munich Agreement and Naval treaty of 1935).
I already mentioned the Soviets wanting to reinforce Czechoslovakia with a million troops during Munich.
The Western Allies didn't want to fight Germany so early, as they were suffering from the Great Depression. Neville Chamberlain's Appeasement policy was such because of it, not to mention hoping for Germany to attack the Soviet Union and exhaust itself in the Russian Winter.
By the time M-R pact was being negotiated, it was understood that Hitler was coming towards Poland, and the Soviets expected the Western Allies to not do anything once again, looking at Austria and Czechoslovakia. Not to mention them not being interested in working together with the Soviets. They were fearing becoming the next target, and so saw an opportunity in signing a nonaggression pact which would also give them the opportunity to secure their borders(like annexing the Baltic States and Eastern Poland and taking the areas around Leningrad).
It was either "reluctantly sign a deal with the devil and prepare for the inevitable" or "risk getting invaded and obliterated because you weren't ready"
 
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