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Kieran FW

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Mar 31, 2019
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As a lover of earlier medieval history, who else would be behind pre-Carolingian start dates (bookmarks). For example:

476 - End of the rule of the last Roman Emperor (In the West)

550s - Anglo-Saxon migration to Britain

Early 700s - Rise of the Carolingian Dynasty under Charles Martel

Also it would be nice to keep the current variety of bookmarked start dates.
 
476 is far too early for CK3. There are no knights to speak of, not even a whisper of feudalism, and barely any records to build a database from. Not to mention that it would be an incredibly long campaign for those wanting to play to the end date.

550's has many of the same issues as 476. Lack of records, having to "invent" feudal societies and rulers where it was tribal and ruled by people lost to time, ect.

Early 700's is more interesting but suffers from the Muhammad problem. Paradox probably is not interested in touching that particular ridiculous issue and I wouldn't blame them.

I think any start dates we see past launch will be like Iron Century. A specific date centered around a notable individual(s), perhaps with some story flavor/events. Certainly better than the "pick any date" that we have in CK2, at least in regards to database work.
 
I like 1014 as a start. Lots of events unfolding that lead to both the Great Schism and William's invasion, and Basil II, fresh after annexing Bulgaria and Croatia submitting to his rule, has a realistic chance to ensure the continuation of the Roman Empire so long as he can make or adopt a suitable heir.
 
476 is far too early for CK3. There are no knights to speak of, not even a whisper of feudalism, and barely any records to build a database from. Not to mention that it would be an incredibly long campaign for those wanting to play to the end date.

550's has many of the same issues as 476. Lack of records, having to "invent" feudal societies and rulers where it was tribal and ruled by people lost to time, ect.

Early 700's is more interesting but suffers from the Muhammad problem. Paradox probably is not interested in touching that particular ridiculous issue and I wouldn't blame them.

I think any start dates we see past launch will be like Iron Century. A specific date centered around a notable individual(s), perhaps with some story flavor/events. Certainly better than the "pick any date" that we have in CK2, at least in regards to database work.

I agree, would obviously be great to see but feudalism is naturally the centrepiece of CKII and therefore also CKIII. I agree an early 700s update could be very interesting in forming the dynasties and houses as outlined in the Dev Diary. For example forming a 'Carolingian' Dynasty through different methods. It would allow for much more diversity in play as you get into the High and Late Middle ages.
 
I like 1014 as a start. Lots of events unfolding that lead to both the Great Schism and William's invasion, and Basil II, fresh after annexing Bulgaria and Croatia submitting to his rule, has a realistic chance to ensure the continuation of the Roman Empire so long as he can make or adopt a suitable heir.

Could even incorporate the reconquests of Italy under Justinian and subsequent Byzantine Emperors
 
I'd honestly be perfectly alright with nothing earlier than 1000. Basil the Bulgar-Slayer, the Saint-Emperor Henry II, and Ferdinand the Great are more than enough for me. There are so many more fascinating start dates later on that fit perfectly with the game's preexisting mechanics: the First, Third, and Fourth Crusades, the Hundred Years' War, the rise of the Ottomans, the Mongol invasions, Scottish independence wars, and more. I'd be much happier pushing the timeline forward than trying to dive backwards.
 
Forgot about Henry II just being coronated.+1 reason for 1014.

I'm also rather leery of pre-11th century starts. For me it's not so much the mechanics, but rather the overall lack of information, much of which is outright legend. We know the Christianization of Scandinavia was still struggling in 1014, for example, while this isn't as certain half a century later.
 
Yeah, I've never understood the fascination with ever-earlier start dates. I get that if you want Norse pagans to be viable, you need something earlier than 1066 (hence the Old Gods start date, although honestly Iron Century works so much better for that), but the earlier you go, the less feudal things get, and the more handwaving/inventing characters you end up with. Even 1066 has a significant number of fictitious characters in the less documented regions, but 867 is essentially fictitious (or mythical characters) everywhere north and east of Germany/Byzantium, and 769 is even worse in that respect (since they used up many of the legendary characters when they made 867, they are stuck with even less plausible choices).

Ultimately CK's gameplay is based on the high middle ages, with feudal contracts, knights, crusades, etc. The further back you go, the more out of place all of that gets. People already complain about the lack of Great Schism; you can handwave that easily in 867, and can maybe get away with it in a stretch in 769 (when the filioque controversy is just starting), but not much earlier.
 
476 is far too early for CK3. There are no knights to speak of, not even a whisper of feudalism, and barely any records to build a database from. Not to mention that it would be an incredibly long campaign for those wanting to play to the end date.

550's has many of the same issues as 476. Lack of records, having to "invent" feudal societies and rulers where it was tribal and ruled by people lost to time, ect.

Early 700's is more interesting but suffers from the Muhammad problem. Paradox probably is not interested in touching that particular ridiculous issue and I wouldn't blame them.

I think any start dates we see past launch will be like Iron Century. A specific date centered around a notable individual(s), perhaps with some story flavor/events. Certainly better than the "pick any date" that we have in CK2, at least in regards to database work.
Muhammad died in 632. Dates after that aren't an issue.
 
At least for CK2, some of the mechanics continue to work well until about 1500. I don't think a 1415 start date would be too out of place.
The mechanics could work well until even later, really. We've got Vlad the Impaler until about 1476 and Cesare Borgia until 1507, both classic CK2 player material. The list of the Scottish dead at the Battle of Flodden in 1513 might as well be a roll of their peerage, such were the number of earls and lords. Babur and his descendants rose to power and ruled much as their ancestor, Tamerlane, did. And, of course, need I say more of Henry VIII and Ivan the Terrible than their names? Really, you could keep this going pretty much up until people started wearing ridiculous wigs. At the very least, I'd take 1492 for an end date over 1453 any day.

Much of what we consider to be the end of the medieval period exists as such because of events that occurred throughout the fifteenth century. Had Charles the Bold and the French magnates faced an opponent less capable than Louis XI, France would likely have continued to be ruled by feudal potentates for some time to come. Richard III was the last king of England to die in battle in 1485, but I doubt anyone at the time would have guaranteed you that would be the case. If we establish a point of divergence prior to such events, I don't think it unreasonable to suggest a fairly long game could exist within the bounds of historical likelihood. I don't consider the overlap with EU4 to be an issue simply because they're such radically different games: EU4 is a game of impersonal global empires, trade, and colonialism, while CK2 is a tapestry of feudal conflict, dynastic intrigue, personal advancement, and finding elaborate ways to marry your siblings.
 
has a realistic chance to ensure the continuation of the Roman Empire so long as he can make or adopt a suitable heir

This isn't actually entirely true. The Macedonian Dynasty continued well after the Bulgar Slayer's death. The problem was that the succeeding emperors tried to rule as he did while lacking the ability to do so effectively.
 
I don't think we'll ever go that back in time in CK3. I'm not even sure they'll put in a 769 start date. I'm definitely sure we'll see other start dates in time though. 936 Iron Century and 1204 Latin Empire come to my mind. Also, I really enjoyed the 1337 start date, it's usually the one I convert to EU4 (there won't be a CK3 to EU4 converter, but I'm sure there will be a fan-made one in time)
 
No, nothing before 867 - the data/research simply isn't there, and it's just awful.
 
i never understand the 'ck isnt supposed to be anything other than feudal' argument. if that were true, only western europe should be playable. and, for that matter, ck doesnt even depict the feudal contract particular well either, because it certainly isnt the free-for-all backstab fest of the game. so whats more important, exploring new, interesting periods and realms or relentlessly fussing about some mechanic that isnt even that accurate to begin with because thats how the franchise is 'supposed' to be?
 
I really dislike all those 'We don't want ealry start dates' posts. First of all, if we consider CK as a game depicting the medieval times, those are usually stated as 5. to 15. century. And quite honestly, I'd really love a start where nearly all countries are still tribal. I usually start CK II as Cornwall in 769, which is already feudal, but I'd love playing as tribal from there, or even better, being able to start a King Arthur campaign. After all, his data were inserted in one of the last patches in the Gwynedd duchy. Aside from that, CK for me is also about guiding a dynasty through a long time, and have lots of stories with my characters; that is something I can't really have with only 400 years. I find even 700 to be astonishingly short. With 30 years of average reign, thats only 23 rulers, and to be honest, I quite often have some old fags ruling for 50 years.
Considering the ending date, since some people touched on it: I really would love it as a dynamic ending, rather than a static one. Like, what differentiates the early modern period (and EU IV) from the medieval time (and CK II/III)? According to the absolutely scientific and unrefutable article on wikipedia regarding the early modern period it is the growing globalization, which started with Columbus discovering America. So, if we take that as a guideline, I'd say the game ends when someone has a full techtree in organization, trade and naval or something, because that would enable explorers to effectively conquer the oceans. That means, if you want to play a fast game and convert it, to get an edge, you rush technology, and on the flip side, if you (like me) want to drag out the game, try to hamper technology, so you can play some ten or twenty years longer.
 
The mechanics could work well until even later, really. We've got Vlad the Impaler until about 1476 and Cesare Borgia until 1507, both classic CK2 player material. The list of the Scottish dead at the Battle of Flodden in 1513 might as well be a roll of their peerage, such were the number of earls and lords. Babur and his descendants rose to power and ruled much as their ancestor, Tamerlane, did. And, of course, need I say more of Henry VIII and Ivan the Terrible than their names? Really, you could keep this going pretty much up until people started wearing ridiculous wigs. At the very least, I'd take 1492 for an end date over 1453 any day.

Much of what we consider to be the end of the medieval period exists as such because of events that occurred throughout the fifteenth century. Had Charles the Bold and the French magnates faced an opponent less capable than Louis XI, France would likely have continued to be ruled by feudal potentates for some time to come. Richard III was the last king of England to die in battle in 1485, but I doubt anyone at the time would have guaranteed you that would be the case. If we establish a point of divergence prior to such events, I don't think it unreasonable to suggest a fairly long game could exist within the bounds of historical likelihood. I don't consider the overlap with EU4 to be an issue simply because they're such radically different games: EU4 is a game of impersonal global empires, trade, and colonialism, while CK2 is a tapestry of feudal conflict, dynastic intrigue, personal advancement, and finding elaborate ways to marry your siblings.

1500 is when the Mamluk economy starts to crash because the Portuguese have found their own way to India. It's a good end date, I think, if only because the world has started to change drastically between the combination of the discovery of the New World and the around-Africa route to India.

This isn't actually entirely true. The Macedonian Dynasty continued well after the Bulgar Slayer's death. The problem was that the succeeding emperors tried to rule as he did while lacking the ability to do so effectively.

I am curious how you define the rule of Constantine VIII and Romanos III to be 'ruling as he did'. I'd say their ability to continue was more a factor of just how well Basil had got things running before his successors actively tore the empire apart from inside.
 
The current iteration of 867 I feel is very balanced, in that there are numerous historical powers that have the opportunity to succeed. It's a lot more "random" than 769, and power-wise, far more balanced without the empire-tier blobs in existence.

936 is a pretty fair compromise between 867 and 1066. I would like for something this early, prior to the HRE, prior to the Seljuks, and prior to Christenization of everything pagan. Part of the fun of CK2 now came with Holy Fury, and the ability to raise your pagan ahistorical empire to prominence.

I think the appeal of 769 and earlier comes mainly from the ability to play for a few hundred extra years. I would also like to see the end date extended beyond 1453, to something in the mid 1500s. So instead of 769-1453, maybe something like 936 to a short while after 1521 and the Protestant Reformation (and arguably the territory of Europa Universalis).