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The question of how well a society holds together would depend more on how homogeneous it is, instead of whether there was a sneak attack.
The USA were not very homogeneous. Especially compared to the Germans or the Japanese of WII. Yet the Americans were pretty united in their war effort, their interservice rivalries paling before what went on within the axis powers.
 
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The USA were not very homogeneous. Especially compared to the Germans or the Japanese of WII. Yet the Americans were pretty united in their war effort, their interservice rivalries paling before what went on within the axis powers.
I disagree. The US was very homogeneous then. If you contrast it with earlier and later periods of US history, and with other societies in history, you might see what I mean.
 
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I disagree. The US was very homogeneous then. If you contrast it with earlier and later periods of US history, and with other societies in history, you might see what I mean.
The citizens and the groups of citizens in the US were rather homogeneous in their political mindset and their attitude towards the nation, surely that's what you mean? Because ethnically, religiously and culturally they weren't very homogeneous
 
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Just to go back a bit...

The missile gap was always a lie, under Kennedy an absolute one and later a relative one inasmuch as the Russians did end up with a larger number of more defective rockets. Whether that made the USSR a paper tiger or not has to do with how you weigh their objectively larger standing conventional forces. Presumably, the US could have mobilized as many people in the abstract and that becomes a question of how well its society could have held together.

In a Pearl Harbor situation, probably fairly well. In a bid to prop up a despotic puppet state in the Middle East or Central Asia &c., much less so.

Lego factory, China... Different thing. Lots of people, more machines, fewer robots.

For a few years, anyway, but the CCP like Cixi before them are often more concerned with having people busy at work than boosting productivity and abstract per capita GDP.

The Missile Gap was a lie sold to the West by the Gehlen Intelligence Organization for reasons of their own. The worse the tensions got, the more important a resurgent Germany became.
 
The Missile Gap was a lie sold to the West by the Gehlen Intelligence Organization for reasons of their own. The worse the tensions got, the more important a resurgent Germany became.
Sorry, but when it comes to German intelligence services, please apply Hanlon's razor.
 
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Sorry, but when it comes to German intelligence services, please apply Hanlon's razor.

Never assume malice when stupidity could be involved?

Not applicable in this case. From one particular perspective it can be seen as sheer genius. Especially since it worked, or was allowed to work because it didn't happen in a vacuum, call it what you want.
 
Never assume malice when stupidity could be involved?

Not applicable in this case. From one particular perspective it can be seen as sheer genius. Especially since it worked, or was allowed to work because it didn't happen in a vacuum, call it what you want.
If one does something stupid and is lucky enough to benefit from it, one is still stupid. Gehlen ran Fremde Heere Ost (Foriegn Armies East) in Nazi Germany and failed to corrently predict a single major German offensive. "
 
Do you have any
I'm methodical, Jodel.

If by method you mean badly connected theory, then yes.

Just as a thought experiment, replace the word "nazi" (or "ex-nazi") in your conspiracy theories with the word "jew", and see where you land.
 
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Do you have any


If by method you mean badly connected theory, then yes.

Just as a thought experiment, replace the word "nazi" (or "ex-nazi") in your conspiracy theories with the word "jew", and see where you land.

Color me surprised. We disagree.
 
To become rich, you need population and hard working, resources. But to become no 1 rich in the world, you need big gun to ban competitors, like the Plaza Accord to stop Japan.
AFAIK, Japan isn't a a country that should complain about its companies being poorly treated by foreign bureaucracies. Not because it wouldn't be true, but you know, glasshouses and pots.
 
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Nazis and the Catholic church are always the reason in Andre's wild tales

Intelligence agencies is a better way of putting it. That is my area of interest. And who has a better intelligence service than Rome?

Having said that, may I say I quite like you. I learn a lot from you.

IMHO: You are a German who is quite convinced the Nazi party ceased to exist as a coherent power on Walpurgisnacht 1945, and dislike any facts or mention of events that prove otherwise. Anything after that is just smoke and mirrors to you regardless if it is government records or not.

I used to wonder if it was because you wanted to help hide them for reasons of your own, but over time I believe you are simply embarrassed and want the entire event to be forgotten.

It won't be forgotten, because it didn't end there. Just look to Thuringia and tell me the True Believers in the Thousand Year Reich have all vanished and gone away.

It is not some massive overarching conspiracy - it is a chain of events that brings us to where we are now, right back where the Nazi party started because the tree was cut down but its roots were never dug up.
 
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To become rich, you need population and hard working, resources. But to become no 1 rich in the world, you need big gun to ban competitors, like the Plaza Accord to stop Japan.
We haven't been banning competitors. We've been de-industrializing ourselves with global free trade.
We're still rich owing to our massive size and efficiency at monetization. On the back end, we have a crippling problem with corruption so all this money isn't solving anything important or bringing financial stability.

It won't be forgotten, because it didn't end there. Just look to Thuringia and tell me the True Believers in the Thousand Year Reich have all vanished and gone away.

It is not some massive overarching conspiracy - it is a chain of events that brings us to where we are now, right back where the Nazi party started because the tree was cut down but its roots were never dug up.

What roots weren't dug up?
 
Was German rearmament the reason, or something else?

Short answer to a long question, and I'm sure it won't make everyone happy but c'est la vie.

Following WWII, America decided that Paperclipping vital Nazis out of Germany, and using ex-Nazi assets was preferable to Stalin bringing his armored horde through the Fulda Gap.

OSS, later CIA, has zero assets inside Soviet Russia. They coopt Reinhard Gehlen. Gehlen, a general in Wehrmacht intelligence, provided security for Treskow's 'General's Bomb Plot' against Hitler and had assets that had direct knowledge of Soviet Russia. Therefore OSS/CIA cut a deal with him.

Gehlen was given a million and a half US WWII dollars to build the 'Gehlen Organization', comprised of large numbers of SS and SD operatives. They provided Washington with 'details' about Soviet Russia that exacerbated the Russian threat to make Germany indispensable to American plans to keep Western Europe free of Communism. The 'Gehlen Org' will form the core of BND as OSS was the core of CIA.

The Gehlen Org is known to have manipulated data to inflame tensions during the Cold War for the benefit of resurgent Germany.

One of these events is the 'Missile Gap', where Gehlen provides credible information that the Soviets will leapfrog the next wave of bomber aircraft launching nukes and pour a huge amount of resources into creating a missle gap that will defeat America's attempts to hold back the Red Menace. Eisenhower commissions the Gaither Report, which uses Gehlen's facts and figures to plan America's next move.

The US then POURS a ridiculous amount of money and research into building missiles, arms and armaments they will never use and we all pray to God they never will.

When the truth arises, CIA merely points at Gehlen and shrugs. But it takes two to tango.

This leads Eisenhower to make his famous exit speech from the Presidency talking about the danger to freedom from the 'Legislative-Military-Industrial Complex' growing so powerful the tail would soon begin wagging the dog. His political advisors demand he drop the 'Legislative' part of this argument, and the 'Military-Industrial Complex' was born.
 
Short answer to a long question, and I'm sure it won't make everyone happy but c'est la vie.

Following WWII, America decided that Paperclipping vital Nazis out of Germany, and using ex-Nazi assets was preferable to Stalin bringing his armored horde through the Fulda Gap.

OSS, later CIA, has zero assets inside Soviet Russia. They coopt Reinhard Gehlen. Gehlen, a general in Wehrmacht intelligence, provided security for Treskow's 'General's Bomb Plot' against Hitler and had assets that had direct knowledge of Soviet Russia. Therefore OSS/CIA cut a deal with him.

Gehlen was given a million and a half US WWII dollars to build the 'Gehlen Organization', comprised of large numbers of SS and SD operatives. They provided Washington with 'details' about Soviet Russia that exacerbated the Russian threat to make Germany indispensable to American plans to keep Western Europe free of Communism. The 'Gehlen Org' will form the core of BND as OSS was the core of CIA.

The Gehlen Org is known to have manipulated data to inflame tensions during the Cold War for the benefit of resurgent Germany.

One of these events is the 'Missile Gap', where Gehlen provides credible information that the Soviets will leapfrog the next wave of bomber aircraft launching nukes and pour a huge amount of resources into creating a missle gap that will defeat America's attempts to hold back the Red Menace. Eisenhower commissions the Gaither Report, which uses Gehlen's facts and figures to plan America's next move.

The US then POURS a ridiculous amount of money and research into building missiles, arms and armaments they will never use and we all pray to God they never will.

When the truth arises, CIA merely points at Gehlen and shrugs. But it takes two to tango.

This leads Eisenhower to make his famous exit speech from the Presidency talking about the danger to freedom from the 'Legislative-Military-Industrial Complex' growing so powerful the tail would soon begin wagging the dog. His political advisors demand he drop the 'Legislative' part of this argument, and the 'Military-Industrial Complex' was born.
Thanks for the response.

How did Gehlen survive being purged after the plot, and why would he assist it if he was against Soviet communism and wanted a strong Germany?