Stellaris Dev Diary #211: 3.0.3 Beta Updates

[rubert]

It's been around for a while before 3.0--but never widely touted.

Before the aggressive setting was reset to passive after every invasion so you had to change it back after every invasion. Not exactly sure which patch changed it.

 

[mial42]

Before the aggressive setting was reset to passive after every invasion so you had to change it back after every invasion. Not exactly sure which patch changed it.

The beta. Still doesn't work in 3.0.2.

 

[tokyocityblues]

Could we see improvements to fleet combat behavior? Usually players have to use mods to get anywhere near decent fleet behavior and I'm a little surprised this hasn't been fixed yet.

Case in point. No matter the combat computer my Titan and long range capital ships engage like it's a knife fight. In a long enough engagement my titan will be literally inside the space station....

 

[TehJumpingJawa]

"We don't know how to make a balanced game, so we'll design by democracy"

The devs have had enough attempts to mould Stellaris into a good game; they've failed.
I'm out.

 

[der.mo]

First: thank you a lot for the changes and your awesome game!

The only thing i think could be boosted is the output of Ringworld- and Ecumenopolis-jobs while decreasung their number... like research districts giving only 2 Science director/ researcher Jobs but each of them would produce 50 of every research. This would make them feel a lot more powerfull (as they should feel in my opinnion) and they could be up and running a lot quicker (and also decrease the lategame lag) since they also need a lot of time and resources to be build in the first place... Also this could be made adjustable at the start since i think not everyone would enjoy this buff and as i said customization is King...

That's it for now! Stay helathy and keep stellaris great

 

[gamerk2]

"We don't know how to make a balanced game, so we'll design by democracy"

The devs have had enough attempts to mould Stellaris into a good game; they've failed.
I'm out.

Pretty much where I am; the pop/economy system, plus the braindead AI is simply too much. Every major patch I come back, play to 2300, then quit for one reason or another, usually boredom. If the AI could do *anything* to be a challenge, if the pop/economy system wasn't so much damn work, then *maybe* I'd play long enough to see a crisis spawn. But the game just gets so damn boring as I spend a hundred years playing what is essentially a glorified population management simulator in space.

 

[HistoricalScore1]

"We don't know how to make a balanced game, so we'll design by democracy"

The devs have had enough attempts to mould Stellaris into a good game; they've failed.
I'm out.

I actually think it's impressive and admirable to have a design by democracy, somewhat. Bad companies assume they know what consumers want or flat out ignore a clear consensus. It's fine, it's your company, you can do what you want. But, smart companies try to retain and build the largest audience. Balance doesn't happen overnight. Designing a challenging/balanced game and especially an AI is not easy.

Pretty much where I am; the pop/economy system, plus the braindead AI is simply too much. Every major patch I come back, play to 2300, then quit for one reason or another, usually boredom. If the AI could do *anything* to be a challenge, if the pop/economy system wasn't so much damn work, then *maybe* I'd play long enough to see a crisis spawn. But the game just gets so damn boring as I spend a hundred years playing what is essentially a glorified population management simulator in space.

Are you mix/maxing with OP builds? What difficulty are you playing on? I'd agree if you're doing tech rush cheese. Otherwise playing a normal empire on Captain up, with AI set to aggressive, if you focus on tech they will punish you. Do you not want an economy aspect? That's what makes great games like this different than say just Warhammer 40K where you just slam ships into each other (still fun).

You also said on Thursday

Now all that would to be done is make it so the maximum number of jobs/housing a planet can support for any planet size ends up being only slightly larger than planetary capacity. Jobs are a problem right now; as others have noted there are too many overall, especially with the reduced overall population growth.

And guess what? They made some changes with the latest update (while I don't agree it's in the right direction, at least they are taking action).

Kudos PDX! Enjoy your time off in Sweden.

 

[Hansatron]

I actually think it's impressive and admirable to have a design by democracy, somewhat. Bad companies assume they know what consumers want or flat out ignore a clear consensus. It's fine, it's your company, you can do what you want. But, smart companies try to retain and build the largest audience. Balance doesn't happen overnight. Designing a challenging/balanced game and especially an AI is not easy.

It's a shame people are slinging so much crap at PDX over these changes. A good designer knows when to protect the player from themselves, but also when to recognize that their vision for the game is clashing a little with reality. I think the 2.8 system was untenable and I personally had to stop playing the game because it was too tedious, so I'm glad to see they are messing around with these changes and even put in sliders.

The shift from more jobs per district to more output is great, if the implementation (using job definitions rather than modifiers) is a little unfortunate. I think 3.03 has much better mechanics to work with than 2.8 had, in terms of looking for balance.

 

[KetlingIRL]

Were any changes made to Rogue Servitor civic? On live bio-trophies make your drones build slower so it feels pretty bad.

Great changes so far, exited to try test realm out.

 

[Cronos988]

The shift from more jobs per district to more output is great, if the implementation (using job definitions rather than modifiers) is a little unfortunate.

I've been playing with all district capacity halved and clerk jobs deleted, and from that experience it seems pretty clear that there are just way too many jobs. Even with planets that have probably about 33% fewer jobs overall I'm only seeing unemployment issues crop up at around 2300, right around the time you can get ringworlds / ecumenopolis.

 

[makapse]

Were any changes made to Rogue Servitor civic? On live bio-trophies make your drones build slower so it feels pretty bad.

Great changes so far, exited to try test realm out.

Yes, bio trophy now give 1 unity instead of 2, but increase the complex drone output by 1% each from .25%. Also,what you are experiencing with slow pop growth has to do with the new pop system, where robots got the worst end of the stick. They need more progress towards a newer pop for every other pop in empire, same as the regular pops, but while regular pops have the logistics boost to grow faster, robots have got nothing. Hence, it's actively punishing you for having non-robot pops when you play as a ME. Only good thing is, while you need to keep your planets small with some 20-30 free housing to keep the growth, robots can easily ignore the planet capacity and are only limited by housing.

 

[Ferrus Animus]

Is it intentional that Ringworlds get the same productivity upgrades via forges and fabricators as other planets?

Because in 3.0.2 those buildings give +5 jobs instead of +1, making industrial ringworlds quite productive. Whereas in the bea it's just the normal +33%/+16% increase insteaf of +100%.

 

[Dr. Crabnipples]

I do feel like the sliders will confuse some. its nice to change the values, but i think a more permanent default setting should be decided.

 

[HistoricalScore1]

I do feel like the sliders will confuse some. its nice to change the values, but i think a more permanent default setting should be decided.

I personally have no idea what those sliders do.

 

[mial42]

The new basic resource/forge/factory buildings seem too powerful (and the effects should be implemented through economic category, not through jobs!). Maybe halve the bonuses they offer? Getting effectively 33% more metallurgists from an early tech is a bit much, and it's multiplicative with everything else. The idea of throughput buildings is nice, but they shouldn't be so strong.

 

[gamerk2]

Are you mix/maxing with OP builds? What difficulty are you playing on? I'd agree if you're doing tech rush cheese. Otherwise playing a normal empire on Captain up, with AI set to aggressive, if you focus on tech they will punish you. Do you not want an economy aspect? That's what makes great games like this different than say just Warhammer 40K where you just slam ships into each other (still fun).

The funny part is I don't min/max whatsoever; I fall behind in tech a bit due to not being able to manage Alloy/CG/Research buildings versus open building slots well. But it really doesn't matter; I just go super wide, keep up fleet strength just enough to discourage the AI from attacking (even when set to aggressive) and simply outscale starting around 2280. The only time the AI punished me for this was the time the Determined Exterminators somehow got the Grand Hearld event. :/

I see it time and again: The AI can keep up, but simply stops building ships much past the time they can field Destroyers, and every time I take a planet off them I see what can at best be described as a godly mess. The game simply stops being a challenge. Even when I'm the focus of the Great Khan I generally have enough fleet strength by the time the event triggers (again, without min/maxing) to deal with him at relative ease solo (which is good, because the AI sure as hell won't help).

And this is on Commodore. Again, WITHOUT min/maxing.

Then I get to the "wait around until Crisis since there's not much to do" part of the game, pausing every few months to figure out what to do on one of my several dozen planets due to a pop growing (because as bad as I am, I'm not trusting AI automation to do it after what I see it do to the AI). Then get bored after 20 years and quit.

 

[Hansatron]

The new basic resource/forge/factory buildings seem too powerful (and the effects should be implemented through economic category, not through jobs!). Maybe halve the bonuses they offer? Getting effectively 33% more metallurgists from an early tech is a bit much, and it's multiplicative with everything else. The idea of throughput buildings is nice, but they shouldn't be so strong.

You do pay extra upkeep though. A generic Metallurgist with a megaforge is identical to a basic machine Fabricator Drone. It's a great tech though, and a must have on industrial worlds. I wouldn't be upset if they bump up the cost/tier because it does seem like you get it too soon.

Speaking on which, can we finally allow all gestalts to get the Global Production Strategy tech? regular machines have never been able to get it without rogue servitor, afaik, because it requires consumer goods techs they cannot even research.

 

[mial42]

You do pay extra upkeep though. A generic Metallurgist with a megaforge is identical to a basic machine Fabricator Drone. It's a great tech though, and a must have on industrial worlds. I wouldn't be upset if they bump up the cost/tier because it does seem like you get it too soon.

I get that you pay extra upkeep, but the building essentially multiplies your metallurgists by 1.33 (or 1.66 for tier 2), likewise with CGs. That's a humongous powerspike, and makes the economy way too strong, especially with how strong pop growth is early game. Comparatively, the food and energy basic resource buildings are only 33% at tier 2. The mining one is 25/50%, but that's just because base miners suck compared to the other two and should be fixed by making them not suck. It'd be best to have them all be 16/33%. Still extremely strong, but not "get this first, win the game."

Speaking on which, can we finally allow all gestalts to get the Global Production Strategy tech? regular machines have never been able to get it without rogue servitor, afaik, because it requires consumer goods techs they cannot even research.

This actually got fixed in 3.0. This is what the tech looks like now:

#Global Manufacturing
tech_global_production_strategy = {
    cost = @tier3cost1
    area = society
    tier = 3
    category = { statecraft }
    prerequisites = { "tech_alloys_1" "tech_colonial_centralization" }
    weight = @tier3weight1

    # unlocks Ministry of Production

    weight_modifier = {
        factor = 1.5
        modifier = {
            factor = 0
            NOR = {
                has_technology = "tech_luxuries_1"
                country_uses_consumer_goods = no
            }
        }
        modifier = {
            factor = 1.25
            research_leader = {
                area = society
                has_trait = "leader_trait_expertise_statecraft"
            }
        }
    }

    ai_weight = {
        factor = 1.5
        modifier = {
            factor = 1.25
            research_leader = {
                area = society
                has_trait = "leader_trait_expertise_statecraft"
            }
        }
    }
}

 

[der.mo]

Problem with too many jobs per planet: Solved. I actually get to see the automatic resettlement in action now, and even deal with some unemployment occasionally.

However, pops are far too productive - I was making thousands per month of every resource by the end of the game, without resource Megastructures, Habitats or special Ascension Perk planets. Even constantly putting out Battleships from two Mega Shipyards didn't drain my resource stockpiles, and I had 20+ levels of repeatable techs by 2400. This wasn't from a galaxy-spanning empire - I only had 25 or so planets.

I think a generalized reduction in resources is in order. We're getting flooded with them right now. The Hydroponics Bay that gives 10 food per month for just 1 energy credit upkeep for example is obviously overpowered. Minerals are a bit too plentiful in space. Districts produce a bit too much. And most importantly, Tech still snowballs exponentially, so either weaken research income or make late-game techs more expensive to compensate. Unity also has the issue where you finish all the Traditions by the start of endgame even if you don't focus on it at all, and after that you soon have enough of it to keep all the Unity Ambitions running at the same time, after which Unity is useless.

Easy economy aside, I have plenty of fun with this version of the game and I think it only needs balance tweaks and bugfixes rather than huge changes.

I disagrre on this point. I think it would be better to increase the output at least of the colonizable megastructures (Ringworlds, Ecumenopoli and maybe also Habitats) so if the Pop growth will decline you can still keep growing your Empire without conquest (this would also make tall builds more viable).

I think this could be also made as a slide/ adjustable so every player could just adjust the megastructure pop output according to his needs from maybe 0.1 to 10 or 0.1 to 15 with a standard setting of 1.

 

[Ferrus Animus]

The new basic resource/forge/factory buildings seem too powerful (and the effects should be implemented through economic category, not through jobs!). Maybe halve the bonuses they offer? Getting effectively 33% more metallurgists from an early tech is a bit much, and it's multiplicative with everything else. The idea of throughput buildings is nice, but they shouldn't be so strong.

You do need the strategics for upkeep.
Also if 33% is too powerful, how can we have any significant techs in this game? It already has too many piddling, tiny modifiers that don't matter unless you aggressively minmax them.