CO Word of the Week #9

[Gaseous Stranger]

It’s really funny that the excuse is now that these “bugs were unknown”.

Because personally, from speaking with early access creators, they have relayed information to me saying that “People were reporting bugs in early access before release that just didn't get fixed until after release and some that still aren't fixed... people in early access shared the sentiment that delays should have happened and a few of us even told them the game needed work and should be delayed. […] people who played before release brought this stuff up to them too.”

So what is the deal? Who is lying here? The early access creators who highlighted these many bugs and issues, or are we being lied to in these WotW posts…


What was the purpose of having an early access testing period with these content creators if overwhelming feedback is going to be completely ignored? Was it seriously all just a marketing campaign?

 

[ClemiMD]

I don't go to retailer after their refund window expires (even though Amazon, for example has 30-90 days return window "no questions asked" basically). I go to MANUFACTURER for the WARRANTY (if I would use your iPhone example).

You have concluded a contract of sale with the retailer and not with the manufacturer. The retailer is therefore responsible if you want to complain about a defective product. You certainly don't go to the manufacturer.

 

[pedro_pujols]

Yes, all that!

The argument that because it's not from the official store is silly. These are the mods and the modders that would be in the store now. Some of these folks are behind the biggest CS1 mods, and they've been getting early versions out there so folks can try and get beyond some of the frustrating and sometimes game breaking things in CS2 as it is.

In the first weeks, there were lots of shady sites, name squatting and the like, but now practically all of the modders are putting the stuff on Thunderstore, and of course GitHub. I'm an old retired guy, and I can use Thunderstore and yeah I could do it manually on GitHub if I had to.

Get your mods folks, the mod makers are out there discussing and working on stuff constantly on discord https://discord.com/invite/HqnEAS6S take a look and see, go and get your mods where most of them are all making them available.

Oh no! What if a mod breaks this perfectly running game that has no minor flaws or major problems with any of the things that it's supposed to do? LoL.


Do people think the mods just magically appear when PDX Mods opens?

I play using mods from Thunderstore which is a great mod manager for the monment. That's the reason why I still play the game. The game is unstable whether I play vanilla or modded (from Thunderstore). And as you said, these modders are the same authors of the most subscribed mods from the Workshop in CS1 who are participating in the beta program in CS2 and are granted whith early access. So, no reason for being crying about not having this same mods in PRDX Mods (until we wait ofc). There are plenty evidence now that something coming from PDX & CO (the mod manager in this case) is not going to work 100% stable or without bugs.

 

[vilkas622]

Our initial goals were for mod support to be added right after release, but these plans changed as we received your feedback and it became clear that there were other areas of the game that needed attention first

It is still not clear to my why CS:2 would not have modding support as part of its release requirements. Why did CO not feel that modding at launch was a required feature?

Its a really baffling decision that when scoping the project mod support was viewed like DLC to be post-release than a core part of the player experience and exposure to CS:2. Especially given the popularity of modding CS:1 and the decision made to restrict officially supported mod stores with CS:2. I think its likely no small part of why CS:2 can't even maintain the concurrent player count of its predecessor.

It continues to feel like CS:2 was pushed out the door for a certain date to appease publisher revenue targets rather than the quality of product. And that's really disappointing as it feels that CO/PDX really don't mind souring players and don't care about the quality of product as money is the only relevant deciding factor.

 

[anydaytv]

I' ve read all of the comments around this topic and it feels a lot of frustration from both directions. I have some questions: How many times you watched a good movie trailer and you bought tickets at cinema and in the final the act was a failure?! Or maybe you liked a song and you bought the entire album but the rest of them were disapointing. You also payed for them... but never meet the expectations. The same thing it s with this game. This is how industry works nowadays , you have to accept this.
I 'm sure you know guys that games like this need the community feedback (bad or good).I think they had money to release it in this form but to develop more and polish to a good state required our financial investment (pre orders , ultimate editions , etc which also required a very good PR to make possible sales ) .
That s why all paradox games come in this state, because they need time and feedback from the players to became a good product.
What i want to say: they are not doctors and our life it s not depending of them so take it easy , grow up ... it s not the end of the world. Instead i see here a lot of IT "doctors" that knows how the things works in a company like this. Do you know how hard is to test a game like this (simulation) , how hard are to reproduce some bugs that occurs in the late game . But think a little how much time need QA to reproduce and test that bug than sent to dev to fix it which then sents again to QA .Maybe as an user you played a month and finaly found a bug.

Also about mods , steam , paradox mod.. bla bla... There is a confusion here: making workshop on steam available it doesn t mean or guarantee that all the classic and old mods from CS1 will be there in the first day. All of them needed years to became what they are today , i feel you always forget this. On the other hand i see Paradox mod as a way to monetize the modders work and to control all of the "unofficial" content . Mark my words : we will see packets of mods for an amount of money like creators packs on steam. The difference here is that all the "steam money" will go in the modders pockets.

As a final thought : Be positive! The game of your dream can't be done by night even if you payed for it in advance and all the bugs you highlight need time to be fixed!​

I am a software developer, so I do know a bit more than a laymen. I'll be the first to say that the underlying bones of the game are as much a work of art as the actual art is. Having said all that, reading your post is a bit frustrating for me because it's years of talk like this that has led us to the current state in the game industry. To be honest, I've never quite seen this kind association with products other than gaming, and it baffles me.

YES - Making a game is HARD. Not just a simulation game, almost any kind of game; especially if you're trying to innovate the genre and try something new. My personal experience is completely irrelevant though. Any argument that starts with "just try to understand guys" is just pointing the finger in the wrong direction. People aren't being unreasonable asking for something, if we were told the things we were asking for were what to expect.

I mean, try to imagine for a minute if your argument seeped into every other aspect of life. Being a doctor is hard, building a car is hard, and being a chef is hard. I shouldn't need to spend hours on WebMD, read car manuals, or watch Gordan Ramsey so that I can empathize and understand the position of someone who claimed to provide a service for profit. You'd be outraged if a food joint gave you debilitating food poisoning, or your brand new car was a lemon. When you turn the key on your car, you expect it to turn on. Just because that's what always happens, does not mean it was easy to do.

You don't sell something based on a promise, you sell something based on a good you possess. One is called capitalism, the other is a scheme.
From a consumer standpoint, the idea is that "It should simply do what it claims on the tin."
Pointing out the fact that something doesn't follow that mantra isn't being negative, it's being factual, and I'd rather live in a factual world than an "overly optimistic" one.

If that's the way the wider industry is heading, then we need to work together to change that constructively - not just for you or me, but for everyone, including game developers.

 

[pilotWeb]

Let's start with modding. I want to apologize for the miscommunication around release time that modding support was imminent. We had a disconnect in information between the community team at Paradox who handle the streams, and our development team.

and the next one:

I also completely understand the frustration you feel learning that modding, and particularly asset import, are coming later than hoped. Our initial goals were for mod support to be added right after release, but these plans changed as we received your feedback and it became clear that there were other areas of the game that needed attention first.

Im sorry, it feels that there is a disconnect not just between your teams but also between these paragraphs.

 

[TripleAgent]

On top of that, we have encountered issues with the asset import, which has delayed the Editor. We are also frustrated by these issues as modding is important to us and we know that a lot of you are looking forward to playing with custom content. All I can say is that we're working on resolving these issues as fast as possible and that we will continue to update you on the progress.

On this specific point, it's been said a lot that there is an issue with asset import, but we still haven't been told what the issue is. Can you tell us what the technical issues are? Is there a particular reason why it's anticipated to take an additional six months to resolve (on top of the three after release that it's already taken)? Is the issue trying to deal with Unity issues or waiting for an engine update, or on the CO code side?

 

[avguy2]

It’s really funny that the excuse is now that these “bugs were unknown”.

Because personally, from speaking with early access creators, they have relayed information to me saying that “People were reporting bugs in early access before release that just didn't get fixed until after release and some that still aren't fixed... people in early access shared the sentiment that delays should have happened and a few of us even told them the game needed work and should be delayed. […] people who played before release brought this stuff up to them too.”

So what is the deal? Who is lying here? The early access creators who highlighted these many bugs and issues, or are we being lied to in these WotW posts…


What was the purpose of having an early access testing period with these content creators if overwhelming feedback is going to be completely ignored? Was it seriously all just a marketing campaign?

More likely CO/ PD totally misjudged how the community would react and hoped they'd get away without too much damage to their reputation.

CO can always claim they didn't know about the whole extent of the bugs and technically that might even be true. But they admitted to massive problems shortly before they released the game and the fact they would make such a statement tells you everything you need to know.

So nobody should believe for a second that CO was unaware that CS2 wasn't ready for release. Even if the EA players didn't said anything (which I'm sure they did) CO would still have known. How could they not.

I don't doubt CO intended to deliver a good and finished game. But due to development difficulities that's not what was released. So yes, as it stands those were just meaningless words of a marketing campaign.

 

[BoraBora]

While some companies scale up and down in relation to different projects, that's now how Colossal Order works.

You either scale up and down the teams or the projects. Not scaling either one leads to this disaster.

 

[Rommyca]

Never seen a community want to see a game fail so bad. Give it time!
Possible scenario : Community shit on us. Devs pulled away and resented the community. Cycle continued. Game died. Studio closed.
Not saying it will happen here but they are feeling the stress and pressure of the situation. Also people can become incredibly unhelpful and toxic and the whole community becomes tainted and its no fun anymore for anyone, This is what you want guys?

 

[avguy2]

@Rommyca Just a wild guess but I think people want a good game. But I agree that will take a lot of time and it's not a sure thing either.
Btw. if CS2 fails that's on CO/ PD, not the players.

 

[Vil.FML]

I think that releasing the game on console before addressing bug and performances issues will be a crash into a wall as high-end PCs required some tinkering and consoles are not that customizable. There will be backlash towards CO for extending its market with a full-priced game with bugs, and refund will again be on the table.

For me, that the WotW started with Paradox ‘conversations’, could hint that the publisher is putting pressure on the team. I mean, there was a Steam Sale recently… when the game was just released. A 10% discount means that money was important for the publisher? for the dev team? Idk
If it not were for the console release, they could have more people on bug and optimisation. That’s why I think that the modding support being a priority is also some kind of way to lower pressure on the team addressing bug fixes.
I hope that this is the case, anyway. And besides, the refund is totally justified, as this game feels like a beta testing with all the needed feedback by the devs. It’s even weird to pay full price for a game when you’re kinda encouraged to give feedback on the product to make it better, when all you wanted was a finished game in a ‘release’ state, so people would want their money back when that phase was over.

Edit: I think the refunds have to be requested at the publisher, they seem to have the decision.

 

[tom_mai78101]

Good heavens, please expand your manpower already. How can you expedite resolving issues and deliver your commitments with such a small team?

They are hiring.

Colossal Order Ltd – Game Development Studio

colossalorder.fi

 

[unmerged(524934)]

@co_avanya many thanks for the update as always, I really appreciate your continuing professionalism in the face of what is, I'm sure, some serious pressure - but could you please directly address the refund question that many of us are now asking, as it's glaringly obvious that you're ducking it. Where is the openness that was promised to "rebuild trust"? I'm sure I speak for many when I say "I would appreciate your giving us good reasons why we shouldn't just start getting trading standards involved". It's not like there isn't a ton of proof out there that the game we were promised was not delivered, and more importantly, has still not been delivered.

It's a very simple question - will you/PDX authorise Steam to refund those of us who feel they were deceived by the marketing and sold a game that didn't actually exist, with features that weren't present?

 

[Gonzoez]

You have concluded a contract of sale with the retailer and not with the manufacturer. The retailer is therefore responsible if you want to complain about a defective product. You certainly don't go to the manufacturer.

My friend, you should be an Esq, not MD to have a valid argument in regards to legal aspects of this situation. I am not an Esq either, so your opinion on this question is as valid as mine. One could argue that the Steam is not a retailer in this context, but rather just a marketplace which allows manufacturer\producers to sell their products for a fee. Retailer is usually an entity thay purchases goods from a manufacturer for consecutive re-sell to individual customers. Steam does not buy copies of the game from developers to sell them to us. So it's questionable whether steam qualifies as "retailer". Steam is "digital distribution system". I don't buy games FROM steam, but rather THROUGH Steam. But then again, it is very much depends on location (region, country, etc...) and local laws...

Either way, "warranties are guarantees on products that are sold by the company. if they refuse to honor it they leave themselves open to a lawsuit because they sold something to you with false premise and become liable for false advertising."

The premises being false - is a topic up for debate, and I hope (for the best of CO/PDX) we won't get to the legal battle which can go either way...

 

[Derangedteddy]

I want to apologize for the miscommunication around release time that modding support was imminent. We had a disconnect in information between the community team at Paradox who handle the streams, and our development team. I completely understand that the communications at the time set expectations that we have not lived up to, and I want to apologize for not communicating the situation sooner. It took us longer than it should to realize this information was out there and to update you on the modding situation.

Our initial goals were for mod support to be added right after release, but these plans changed as we received your feedback and it became clear that there were other areas of the game that needed attention first. On top of that, we have encountered issues with the asset import, which has delayed the Editor.

These two statements seem to be in direct conflict with each other. I find it difficult to believe that CO was so out of touch with Paradox's marketing that nobody at CO was aware of the multiple, repeated promises of modding availability soon after release, both in streams and published articles. This wasn't an isolated incident where Maddie made an off-hand comment in one stream. It was said multiple times in multiple official text publications immediately prior to release.

What I'm struggling to understand is how all three categories of mods (code, asset, map) encountered separate and unique problems so severe that it pushed their final "production" release dates back a full year or more from the game's release. The second quoted statement seems to suggest that development for PDX Mods integration was nearly complete, but sidelined due to bugfixes (which is at odds with the first statement that they weren't nearly ready and the communication saying so was inaccurate). It would stand to reason, then, that the modding tools would be quickly made available whenever work was able to resume on finishing them. Mariina herself said in WotW #3 (November 13th), "We expect it will take a couple of months to get the Editor in a shape where we can release it, but we don’t have a concrete timeline yet as we don’t want to make promises we can’t keep." She then said in WotW #5 (November 27th) " The Editor will be released early next year..." Those statements make it seem like work had resumed on modding support sometime around early to mid November. Now we're not getting code modding in beta form until March, with IOUs attached to map and asset modding. Excluding the holiday break, that's nearly four months of development that has been occurring in all three mod categories just to get a beta release out for code modding, alone.

This isn't adding up and I don't think this clarifies anything for me. Either it was nearly ready at release or it wasn't, but it seems like both things are being said concurrently. Given these statements and the current timelines as it exists, I am beginning to think that work wasn't started in earnest on modding support until shortly before release. I am also beginning to think that we are not getting the full story, here.

To recap, it seems that you've said:

1.) Modding wasn't going to be ready shortly after release and we forgot to update Paradox on the new timeline.
2.) Modding was going to be ready shortly after release and was delayed due to bugfix work.

Which is it?

 

[AngryHitsuji]

Funny how all that "miscommunication" just happened to be on the side of burying delays and reducing transparency for consumers, doing whatever it took to ensure pre-orders stayed uncancelled and then hoping people got through the 2 hour steam refund window before realising how broken the game actually was.

apologize for not communicating

I swear I've heard this excuse from Paradox or it's subordinate dev teams for just about every game and many of the DLC's. HOI4, Victoria 3, Stellaris, over and over again neither Paradox or their dev teams take communication with the customers seriously enough to bother getting their stories straight.

In those live streams Maddie was calling herself the "Community Manager for Cities Skylines 2".. yet apparently no-one at CO bothered updating her on questions about modding support that she herself knew was going to asked dozens of times? She was in the official discord telling everyone the week before release that the company had "spent months" updating it, that the community would be "kept up to date on the plans" only for Maddie AND THE COMMUNITY to get ignored and fed false information.

So basically CO or Paradox or both have hung her out to dry by letting her make stonewall promises that you guys apparently knew were BS, a week before launch, and never bothered correcting her and never bothered saying "actually, when we said it'll be days after launch, we actually meant sometime in the next several years".

 

[newtlord]

What was the purpose of having an early access testing period with these content creators if overwhelming feedback is going to be completely ignored? Was it seriously all just a marketing campaign?

Early access to "content creators" is always a marketing campaign.

 

[NightWish36]

Thank you @co_avanya for the insights and for giving us an update on the ongoing progress. I really appreciate you saying the right things to the community about the many critical comments, however justified they may be. Keep up the good work!

What, people work to earn money? What a disgrace.

Yes, Oopsy. Why not? People wanted an apology. There's another one. Again.
Fixing bugs is not just "let's fix a bug and release the fix", it is a bit more complicated. This has been explained many times, both by CO itself and by people here in the forum who work as software developers.
And what the hell shall CO refund? They can't. You demand a refund where you bought it. At the retailer, nowhere else. If your iPhone is broken, do you ring Steve Jobs?

Apple holds a very nice event and introduces the new iPhone. It praises its features and encourages you to buy it.

Imagine that when you come home and start using your phone, you cannot take photos, dont install applications, or even your phone freezes.

Would you thank Apple or would you write to Apple's forum to ask your favorite brand to fix these?

You say "thats very good ı love the game, ı dont care a few bugs and missing contents" .Noooo this is wrong.We pay the game.If company told us "this is early acces game, we are so small team, game is bugy, we want a few months, we delay" nobody say anything.For those who seek their rights here you cant say "ıf your iphone is broken, do you ring steve"

After cp2077 all companys are made bugy game.They said "ok we finish the game, we dont control it, after we publish gamers are write us to forum".This is tooo wrong idea !

 

[AngryHitsuji]

Was it seriously all just a marketing campaign?

Yes.

The only pre-release public-facing testing that has any actual bearing on the eventual product is load testing server capacity in multiplayer games. Which has nothing to do with the actual product, just how much the support infrastructure can bear.

Apart from that pre-release events like this are:

1. A marketing gimmick (influencers, pre-release youtube hype eg this game)
2. Revenue generation (early access, eg bg3).
3. It's actually a soft launch and changes are set in the pipeline for post-release support anyway (eg Battlefield V, Titanfall 2)
4. Calling it a beta helps fanbois defend critical failures in the game quality, because the instant response to any criticism is "it's just beta, it'll be fixed for release" when it never is.