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Dev Diary #144 - Legends and Lesions

Hello everybody! Welcome to this Developer Diary explaining the creative vision behind Crusader Kings III’s first Core Expansion: Legends of the Dead, courtesy of one of our talented game designers (and resident historian on medieval plagues!)





In the year of the lord 1346 the Crimean port of Caffa was being besieged by the Golden Horde. The contemporary Italian notary de Mussis writes down that diseased corpses were thrown over its walls and thus, the Black Plague entered Europe. That same year, Edward III of England defeated the forces of king Philip VI of France in Crecy. Two years later, Edward would try to create the Order of the Round Table, inspired by the heroic deeds of King Arthur, and later transformed into the Order of the Garter.

As our Game Director already mentioned in last week's Chapter III overview, we're exploring a new type of expansion focusing on systems that affect the whole map, rather than just adding flavor to a specific region. We didn’t have a name for it at the beginning, but we knew we wanted to do something bigger with the time we had, while planning the next Major Expansion.

We've been wanting to cover Plagues since approximately the 12th of January 2021. We still have the early designs stored somewhere, but we put that aside for a while in order to develop the huge endeavor that was Tours & Tournaments. However, the team stayed highly passionate about plagues throughout the entire time (as many of us have fond memories of The Reaper's Due), and we knew it was something that we wanted to tackle again.

Soon after the release of Tours & Tournaments it became apparent that it was the moment to pick up plagues again, but that presented its own challenges, among them a very important one - how to make this distinct from its Crusader Kings II version?

We were also very aware of the circumstances of the world, so we decided it was important to have some hope spreading across the map as well.

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When researching the way medieval people saw plagues, we noticed that on many occasions they moved towards blaming the monarchs; If they're a representative of divine power on earth, and God is punishing us, then it must be because the representative is doing a bad job, right? That made us think of the impact that would have on a ruler's Legitimacy... and then we started thinking about Legitimacy itself.

Sure, we already had Prestige in the game, but that felt like a representation of what you've done and how you present yourself, rather than "are you fit to rule?", "do people believe in you?", "are you really the right person for this?" Legitimacy was born as a way to represent these questions within the game, which raised the question: how do you prove your rule is legitimate?

Soon, we thought of the medieval royal genealogies, tracing back the lineages to Trojan heroes, Charlemagne, mythological kings and even gods. Proving that you're the descendant of Aeneas is the easiest way to say, "I am the right person to rule."

"To be noble," the medieval historian George Duby notes, "is to be able to refer to a genealogy."

This, obviously, led us to Legends, and legends certainly did spread during the Middle Ages. King Arthur and his knights became so popular that they soon received translations and new material in French, German, Spanish and Italian. Legends got out of control, changed and expanded through the centuries, creating new stories that had little to do with their original purpose.

In Legends of the Dead, we unite the brightest and darkest moments of humanity - tales of greatness illuminating a devastated land. Desolation and despair, but also the hope that comes after.

Plagues will ravage your realm, causing development to plummet, and kill characters indiscriminately, for Death knows no master. In addition to our existing diseases, you'll be able to suffer from Holy Fire, Bloody Flux, and Measles. Holy Fire was the medieval name for ergotism, while outbreaks of dysentery (frequently occurring in the wake of passing armies) were known as Bloody Flux. Measles in particular is a danger to infants, and could be a dynasty killer if players aren't careful.

We’ll cover these in more detail when we talk about Plagues in a later Dev Diary, however.

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[Image: A Consumption outbreak follows the coast of the English Channel]

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[Image: New (and full body!) graphics for measles]

Legends will allow you to write down the heroic deeds of your ancestors or sing about your own glory. Cover the map in the stories that you create, gaining powerful control and skill boosts, among other effects.

It’s not just the likes of Hercules who get their own legends, however; being a faithful devotee can also spawn legendary tales of martyrdom and sacrifice. And, of course, you'll be able to trace your Legend back to the most legitimate monarchs of the past. Spreading a Legend (and increasing its quality) will give you unique rewards, such as special Decisions or new Buildings. In such a highly systemic expansion with both Plagues and Legitimacy, Legends also allow for some nice historical flavor and roleplay elements.

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[Image: The Custody of the Holy Site legend spreads over Galicia]

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[Image: A Legendary Statue built to commemorate a hero's legend]

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[Image: A legend turned into an artifact]



We will touch more on Legends and Legitimacy and how they work in-game next week, in addition to a deep dive into the heroic (and sometimes grimy) art created for this expansion! And worry not, Plagues - the most famous of them all in particular - will receive some more attention soon after.
 
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I think legends and legitimacy are what I'm most excited for in chapter 3!

Do legends include sainthood? If there are legends of piety, it seems only natural that beatification is tied in to this system.

If so, Yoruba religion should probably get that mechanic, localized as "Orisha" to represent heroic paths.
 
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Really looking forward to having plagues back in CK :cool:

But and this is a big
BUT

We don't need any more buffs, the game is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay to easy already, what we need is
NERFS
plenty of nerfs, modders, myself included, are adding nerfs to the game just to keep it interesting and playable beyond the first couple of years, otherwise vanilla is a walk in the park on a sunny day with rainbows and unicorns.
I mean, yes, very much so. But on the risk of raising a point that has been raised already (haven't checked beyond the first page), I am hopefull that diseases will help in that regard.

Medieval diseases, especially in the context of war and pandemics but also outside of that were *VICIOUS* and one of the primary things "nerfing" your life as a medieval ruler. If they make them dangerous enough this will really help things while improving realism.

And if the developers don't make them appropriate, then I am sure one of the modding saints will do so. Leaving aside the whole argument of that being Paradox outsourcing what should be their job to the modders...
 
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"Sure, we already had Prestige in the game, but that felt like a representation of what you've done and how you present yourself, rather than "are you fit to rule?", "do people believe in you?", "are you really the right person for this?" Legitimacy was born as a way to represent these questions within the game, which raised the question: how do you prove your rule is legitimate?"
We also have vassal opinion, vassal stances, short reign penalty, preferred heir by vassal groups and popular opinion in each county.
Each of those questions is already answered.
Legitimacy is already represented in the game.
Will every game mechanic and every event be reworked to take this new legitimacy into account?
 
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Here’s hoping the legends make it into the epitaph/memorial at the end of your life instead of whatever random thing you may be remembered for after uniting half the world.

Also would be interesting to be able to kill the infected and torch their bodies to try and nip the disease in the bud. Not without consequence, of course.
 
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Can I please just get confirmation that the Dev team knows how nonsensical and even offensive the “Blood of Allah” legacy they shared in the announcement is.

Please tell me they fixed it and are working for better representation of the Abrahamic faiths.
 
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I mean, yes, very much so. But on the risk of raising a point that has been raised already (haven't checked beyond the first page), I am hopefull that diseases will help in that regard.

Medieval diseases, especially in the context of war and pandemics but also outside of that were *VICIOUS* and one of the primary things "nerfing" your life as a medieval ruler. If they make them dangerous enough this will really help things while improving realism.

And if the developers don't make them appropriate, then I am sure one of the modding saints will do so. Leaving aside the whole argument of that being Paradox outsourcing what should be their job to the modders...
Sure diseases will hopefully help but adding one to the negative column while also adding one to the positive column doesn't change the balance, and as they are likely to add way more than one to the positive coulmn it will as usual tip the scales too much in the player's favour.
 
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Yeah legitimacy needs to be punishing and add consequences to actions in order to curb player behavior away from easy choices that trivialize the interesting systems we have currently but have no need to engage with. It’s either going to be very good or very bad.
 
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This, obviously, led us to Legends, and legends certainly did spread during the Middle Ages. King Arthur and his knights became so popular that they soon received translations and new material in French, German, Spanish and Italian. Legends got out of control, changed and expanded through the centuries, creating new stories that had little to do with their original purpose.
I hope, on top of King Arthur's legends, you will add the ones from the Matter of France (a.k.a. the Carolingian cycle).

Including the one very well-known and... handsome paladin from that legend
 
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I mean, yes, very much so. But on the risk of raising a point that has been raised already (haven't checked beyond the first page), I am hopefull that diseases will help in that regard.

Medieval diseases, especially in the context of war and pandemics but also outside of that were *VICIOUS* and one of the primary things "nerfing" your life as a medieval ruler. If they make them dangerous enough this will really help things while improving realism.

And if the developers don't make them appropriate, then I am sure one of the modding saints will do so. Leaving aside the whole argument of that being Paradox outsourcing what should be their job to the modders...
I hope that disease is NOT the balance to Legitimacy nor the answer to making the game harder. Legitimacy is very likely to be a Base Game addition, so to have its counter locked behind a DLC is not good.

Secondly, I think the source of the current imbalance needs to be fixed (modifier stacking), instead of adding a source of counter-balance (Legitimacy and Disease). As in, modifiers need to be reigned in at how they are handed out like candy at Halloween.

Honestly, when was the last time you had a bad-stat ruler? Because all of mine eventually cross 20+ in multiple stats and have crazy Prowess no matter what. Prowess modifier stacking has the added problem of warping the balance of warfare because of how Knights use that stat to calculate their battle damage.

Sure diseases will hopefully help but adding one to the negative column while also adding one to the positive column doesn't change the balance, and as they are likely to add way more than one to the positive coulmn it will as usual tip the scales too much in the player's favour.
Agreed, if Disease aims to balance Legitimacy, then we are still left with all the problems of yesteryear
 
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Will existing decisions like Found Aragon or Become Saoshyant create Legends?
Man I really hope they can create unique legends for big decisions like those. Mann & the Isles,North sea, unite India , Armenia empire,avenging the battle of tours ,reviving Roman empire & ending struggles etc.

It would make them feel more special and actually worth doing.(especially for decisions such as Greater Armenia,Aragon etc that offer almost no reward)
 
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Is it reasonable to assume that this update will break save games?
It's always reasonable to assume that of every update.
 
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I still worry that people are baying for Global Nerfs, when there are also people here who don't want Global nerfs.

I remember how it was in CK2, how people kept demanding Global Nerf after Global Nerf, and how the Devs eventually wound up almost nerfing CK2 into the literal basement. And guess what? People were STILL demanding nerfs, over the vehement objections of lots of other players.

Only thing I can think of is to make the Game Rules as robust as possible; capable of supporting infinite degrees of ease/difficulty, instead of going for a One-Size-fits-all policy.

Such a global policy would only work if there were only one playstyle to balance the Game for. But there are many different playstyles for this Game, many of which would be actively harmed by Global Nerfs, as they were in CK2 before the Game Rules were brought into the Game.

Please think before you Nerf. Ask yourself if any of these Nerfs can be done through Game Rules...
 
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Really looking forward to having plagues back in CK :cool:

But and this is a big
BUT

We don't need any more buffs, the game is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay to easy already, what we need is
NERFS
plenty of nerfs, modders, myself included, are adding nerfs to the game just to keep it interesting and playable beyond the first couple of years, otherwise vanilla is a walk in the park on a sunny day with rainbows and unicorns.
It would be cool if younger dynasties with no renown have a legitimacy malus for controlling anything over county-rank

In any case, even if they don't now it'll be doable
 
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I´ve just read that only rulers have legitimacy. (In the tooltip seen in the announcement video.)

I know that´s not something which can be changed on a whim, but i sincerely doubt that the mechanic can be engaging, fun and thematic without tying it to titles and without different persons having varying claims to legitimacy.
 
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Regarding ‘fluff’ vs. ‘meaty’ DDs—the devs get compliments and complaints for both types. There are posts on this forum (some from the last few weeks) from people who have been telling the devs they’d love more diaries, even if they’re ‘light’ ones. There have also been posts/threads in the past year where people have complained about long, meaty diaries and asked that the devs break them into several smaller ones. I suspect that the final decision has more to do with dev workflow issues and timing, because whatever they decide, it will please some and displease others. ;)

The only thing that changes your resources (gold/manpower etc) seems to be control and it is almost always full anyway.

It's weird that stuff like Winters, recent wars, bad/good harvests, rising levies does not impact your economy at all.
No one seems to be paying this any attention!:
Plagues will ravage your realm, causing development to plummet, and kill characters indiscriminately, for Death knows no master.
That should make a difference! Our gold income is going to suffer. Our innovation discovery rate will decrease. Our population numbers will plummet, our skilled advisors may die off, to say nothing of our heirs.

We won’t know how big a difference it’ll all make until we play, but it doesn’t look like it’s all roses and rainbows. There are thorns and storms in there, too.
 
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I´ve just read that only rulers have legitimacy. (In the tooltip seen in the announcement video.)

I know that´s not something which can be changed on a whim, but i sincerely doubt that the mechanic can be engaging, fun and thematic without tying it to titles and without different persons having varying claims to legitimacy.
Agree!
 
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