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Dev Diary #144 - Legends and Lesions

Hello everybody! Welcome to this Developer Diary explaining the creative vision behind Crusader Kings III’s first Core Expansion: Legends of the Dead, courtesy of one of our talented game designers (and resident historian on medieval plagues!)





In the year of the lord 1346 the Crimean port of Caffa was being besieged by the Golden Horde. The contemporary Italian notary de Mussis writes down that diseased corpses were thrown over its walls and thus, the Black Plague entered Europe. That same year, Edward III of England defeated the forces of king Philip VI of France in Crecy. Two years later, Edward would try to create the Order of the Round Table, inspired by the heroic deeds of King Arthur, and later transformed into the Order of the Garter.

As our Game Director already mentioned in last week's Chapter III overview, we're exploring a new type of expansion focusing on systems that affect the whole map, rather than just adding flavor to a specific region. We didn’t have a name for it at the beginning, but we knew we wanted to do something bigger with the time we had, while planning the next Major Expansion.

We've been wanting to cover Plagues since approximately the 12th of January 2021. We still have the early designs stored somewhere, but we put that aside for a while in order to develop the huge endeavor that was Tours & Tournaments. However, the team stayed highly passionate about plagues throughout the entire time (as many of us have fond memories of The Reaper's Due), and we knew it was something that we wanted to tackle again.

Soon after the release of Tours & Tournaments it became apparent that it was the moment to pick up plagues again, but that presented its own challenges, among them a very important one - how to make this distinct from its Crusader Kings II version?

We were also very aware of the circumstances of the world, so we decided it was important to have some hope spreading across the map as well.

image-01.png


When researching the way medieval people saw plagues, we noticed that on many occasions they moved towards blaming the monarchs; If they're a representative of divine power on earth, and God is punishing us, then it must be because the representative is doing a bad job, right? That made us think of the impact that would have on a ruler's Legitimacy... and then we started thinking about Legitimacy itself.

Sure, we already had Prestige in the game, but that felt like a representation of what you've done and how you present yourself, rather than "are you fit to rule?", "do people believe in you?", "are you really the right person for this?" Legitimacy was born as a way to represent these questions within the game, which raised the question: how do you prove your rule is legitimate?

Soon, we thought of the medieval royal genealogies, tracing back the lineages to Trojan heroes, Charlemagne, mythological kings and even gods. Proving that you're the descendant of Aeneas is the easiest way to say, "I am the right person to rule."

"To be noble," the medieval historian George Duby notes, "is to be able to refer to a genealogy."

This, obviously, led us to Legends, and legends certainly did spread during the Middle Ages. King Arthur and his knights became so popular that they soon received translations and new material in French, German, Spanish and Italian. Legends got out of control, changed and expanded through the centuries, creating new stories that had little to do with their original purpose.

In Legends of the Dead, we unite the brightest and darkest moments of humanity - tales of greatness illuminating a devastated land. Desolation and despair, but also the hope that comes after.

Plagues will ravage your realm, causing development to plummet, and kill characters indiscriminately, for Death knows no master. In addition to our existing diseases, you'll be able to suffer from Holy Fire, Bloody Flux, and Measles. Holy Fire was the medieval name for ergotism, while outbreaks of dysentery (frequently occurring in the wake of passing armies) were known as Bloody Flux. Measles in particular is a danger to infants, and could be a dynasty killer if players aren't careful.

We’ll cover these in more detail when we talk about Plagues in a later Dev Diary, however.

image-02.png

image-03.png

[Image: A Consumption outbreak follows the coast of the English Channel]

image-04.png

[Image: New (and full body!) graphics for measles]

Legends will allow you to write down the heroic deeds of your ancestors or sing about your own glory. Cover the map in the stories that you create, gaining powerful control and skill boosts, among other effects.

It’s not just the likes of Hercules who get their own legends, however; being a faithful devotee can also spawn legendary tales of martyrdom and sacrifice. And, of course, you'll be able to trace your Legend back to the most legitimate monarchs of the past. Spreading a Legend (and increasing its quality) will give you unique rewards, such as special Decisions or new Buildings. In such a highly systemic expansion with both Plagues and Legitimacy, Legends also allow for some nice historical flavor and roleplay elements.

image-05.png

[Image: The Custody of the Holy Site legend spreads over Galicia]

image-06.png

[Image: A Legendary Statue built to commemorate a hero's legend]

image-07.png

[Image: A legend turned into an artifact]



We will touch more on Legends and Legitimacy and how they work in-game next week, in addition to a deep dive into the heroic (and sometimes grimy) art created for this expansion! And worry not, Plagues - the most famous of them all in particular - will receive some more attention soon after.
 
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Is it reasonable to assume that this update will break save games?
It is reasonable to assume that all updates which do not explicitly say in advance that they won't, will.
 
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When someone gets bored because they conquered an empire and they can't lose it, the problem isn't that the game is too easy, it's that the player felt like there was nothing else to do but to conquer an empire and make sure they wouldn't lose it.
No disagreement here, but how will nerfing help there?
My objection towards the demand for nerfing is simple based on the way it is percieved. Nerfing for the majority means reduce the numbers.
More content is nice and it is coming, simply see the current chapter. The epidemic and legitimacy system will bring some difference into the game. I might be wrong but I got the impression that heavy epidemics will happen late game not early game so when you start getting complacent / bored you will get hit
One of my fears regarding legends is that characters will just stumble upon them without really intending to. Or they'll just unlock them because they can.
As far as I understood it, legends are Bloodlines+. So yeah they will be created and unlocked.
 
Really looking forward to having plagues back in CK :cool:

But and this is a big
BUT

We don't need any more buffs, the game is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay to easy already, what we need is
NERFS
plenty of nerfs, modders, myself included, are adding nerfs to the game just to keep it interesting and playable beyond the first couple of years, otherwise vanilla is a walk in the park on a sunny day with rainbows and unicorns.
Yes! One thing I was discussing with friends the other day is how much of a non-event disinheriting someone is - historically this led to some of the biggest civil wars of the time; war of the roses, 100 years war, Norman conquest, etc etc, and currently in game you just take a slight renown hit (which incidentally means nothing as renown only matters when you go over a number, rather than under a number, and has no nerfing associated with it). Would LOVE to see disinheritance causing a big old legitimacy hit, and potential uprisings among vassals
 
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Will there be visual details on the map, where there's a disease ongoing, like the giant bonfires from CKII?
would love to see more dynamic changes on the map like CK2 and on a better scale Vic3, not just bonfires for diseases but for other things like raiding etc
 
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Yes! One thing I was discussing with friends the other day is how much of a non-event disinheriting someone is - historically this led to some of the biggest civil wars of the time; war of the roses, 100 years war, Norman conquest, etc etc, and currently in game you just take a slight renown hit (which incidentally means nothing as renown only matters when you go over a number, rather than under a number, and has no nerfing associated with it). Would LOVE to see disinheritance causing a big old legitimacy hit, and potential uprisings among vassals
I hope Legitimacy will specifically play a big role in this scenario. For example (fictitious numbers):

You have 80 out of 100 legitimacy. You then decide to disinherit your primary heir for whatever reason and die.

Normally, your heir would start with 0.5 of your legitimacy, on this case 40.

But in this case, your disinherited son gets that 40 while the younger son gets half that, 20.

Now you play as the younger heir, dogged by really low legitimacy, with a brother running around with more legitimacy than you, who is just waiting for a faction to put him back on top.

Now that is far more interesting gameplay and narrative. But this relies on factions being able to be more nuanced than just "here is a group of people who dislike you and randomly picked a faction type to join".
 
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release is less then a month away, why so sparse on details?
There'll be one dev diary on legends and one on diseases. Is more than that necessary?
 
I hope for local legends in addition to major ones, something that's not likely to spread beyond your people. local legends could help flesh out the relationship between you and your subjects and help define who you are as a ruler in their eyes. I mean it would give a chance to give some flavor to every region, to tell local stories everywhere. it could have a positive or negative effect like a nickname or boost/drop in legitimacy. Maybe add in local legends about legendary animals to hunt, like a wolf that's been killing villagers and you have the option to try and hunt it down as that legend spreads in the area in France if you do you're a hero, if not well enjoy the results.
Negative major legends that can harm your house or dynasty.

a landless traveler could also interact with local legends, as they travel from one place to another.

plagues sound good, I'm glad to see that the actions of armies can start some, that makes it a lot more impactful. I just hope along with starting some it can affect them as well, with a drop in available units and weakened knights if they get it.
 
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There'll be one dev diary on legends and one on diseases. Is more than that necessary?
It would certainly be ideal, unless there is a serious lack of overall content to these systems two dev diaries should not be enough to cover the content of the DLC in the detail Paradox used to provide; both in the build up to release of CK3 and prior on CK2 and other titles. One of the things that always used to help justify the Paradox DLC model was that the dev diaries told you absolutely everything about the upcoming DLC and update meaning you had all the information you needed to evaluate if the pack was something you would be interested in or something you would rather pass on.

CK3 hasn't really had that same level of detail post-release, certainly not since Royal Court, and with the increased pricing of Chapter 3 there is a particular desire amongst many players to know the details of what they are buying into. Two dev diaries is going to set off alarm bells due to those concerns over either a potential lack of content, or a lack of information.
 
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With the introduction of diseases, will you guys consider revamping the harm system? (Or possibly the health system)

While I appreciate it as an effort to curb the lack of difficulty of the game, I feel it is an inorganic and unfun way to reduce the comically long life expectancies in the game.

I would much prefer to see a natural life expectancy closer to those in the period without reliance on crap shoots on a set timer.
 
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Hello everybody! Welcome to this Developer Diary explaining the creative vision behind Crusader Kings III’s first Core Expansion: Legends of the Dead, courtesy of one of our talented game designers (and resident historian on medieval plagues!)





In the year of the lord 1346 the Crimean port of Caffa was being besieged by the Golden Horde. The contemporary Italian notary de Mussis writes down that diseased corpses were thrown over its walls and thus, the Black Plague entered Europe. That same year, Edward III of England defeated the forces of king Philip VI of France in Crecy. Two years later, Edward would try to create the Order of the Round Table, inspired by the heroic deeds of King Arthur, and later transformed into the Order of the Garter.

As our Game Director already mentioned in last week's Chapter III overview, we're exploring a new type of expansion focusing on systems that affect the whole map, rather than just adding flavor to a specific region. We didn’t have a name for it at the beginning, but we knew we wanted to do something bigger with the time we had, while planning the next Major Expansion.

We've been wanting to cover Plagues since approximately the 12th of January 2021. We still have the early designs stored somewhere, but we put that aside for a while in order to develop the huge endeavor that was Tours & Tournaments. However, the team stayed highly passionate about plagues throughout the entire time (as many of us have fond memories of The Reaper's Due), and we knew it was something that we wanted to tackle again.

Soon after the release of Tours & Tournaments it became apparent that it was the moment to pick up plagues again, but that presented its own challenges, among them a very important one - how to make this distinct from its Crusader Kings II version?

We were also very aware of the circumstances of the world, so we decided it was important to have some hope spreading across the map as well.

View attachment 1082781

When researching the way medieval people saw plagues, we noticed that on many occasions they moved towards blaming the monarchs; If they're a representative of divine power on earth, and God is punishing us, then it must be because the representative is doing a bad job, right? That made us think of the impact that would have on a ruler's Legitimacy... and then we started thinking about Legitimacy itself.

Sure, we already had Prestige in the game, but that felt like a representation of what you've done and how you present yourself, rather than "are you fit to rule?", "do people believe in you?", "are you really the right person for this?" Legitimacy was born as a way to represent these questions within the game, which raised the question: how do you prove your rule is legitimate?

Soon, we thought of the medieval royal genealogies, tracing back the lineages to Trojan heroes, Charlemagne, mythological kings and even gods. Proving that you're the descendant of Aeneas is the easiest way to say, "I am the right person to rule."

"To be noble," the medieval historian George Duby notes, "is to be able to refer to a genealogy."

This, obviously, led us to Legends, and legends certainly did spread during the Middle Ages. King Arthur and his knights became so popular that they soon received translations and new material in French, German, Spanish and Italian. Legends got out of control, changed and expanded through the centuries, creating new stories that had little to do with their original purpose.

In Legends of the Dead, we unite the brightest and darkest moments of humanity - tales of greatness illuminating a devastated land. Desolation and despair, but also the hope that comes after.

Plagues will ravage your realm, causing development to plummet, and kill characters indiscriminately, for Death knows no master. In addition to our existing diseases, you'll be able to suffer from Holy Fire, Bloody Flux, and Measles. Holy Fire was the medieval name for ergotism, while outbreaks of dysentery (frequently occurring in the wake of passing armies) were known as Bloody Flux. Measles in particular is a danger to infants, and could be a dynasty killer if players aren't careful.

We’ll cover these in more detail when we talk about Plagues in a later Dev Diary, however.

View attachment 1082782
View attachment 1082783
[Image: A Consumption outbreak follows the coast of the English Channel]

View attachment 1082784
[Image: New (and full body!) graphics for measles]

Legends will allow you to write down the heroic deeds of your ancestors or sing about your own glory. Cover the map in the stories that you create, gaining powerful control and skill boosts, among other effects.

It’s not just the likes of Hercules who get their own legends, however; being a faithful devotee can also spawn legendary tales of martyrdom and sacrifice. And, of course, you'll be able to trace your Legend back to the most legitimate monarchs of the past. Spreading a Legend (and increasing its quality) will give you unique rewards, such as special Decisions or new Buildings. In such a highly systemic expansion with both Plagues and Legitimacy, Legends also allow for some nice historical flavor and roleplay elements.

View attachment 1082785
[Image: The Custody of the Holy Site legend spreads over Galicia]

View attachment 1082786
[Image: A Legendary Statue built to commemorate a hero's legend]

View attachment 1082787
[Image: A legend turned into an artifact]



We will touch more on Legends and Legitimacy and how they work in-game next week, in addition to a deep dive into the heroic (and sometimes grimy) art created for this expansion! And worry not, Plagues - the most famous of them all in particular - will receive some more attention soon after.
I'm really glad this is a mechanic being introduced but I can't understand why you would do tours and tournaments first. Also feels like plagues need a more a sophisticated economic and population system to affect. Are there plans to work on those as well? Keep up the good work tho!
 
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Everything regarding this DLC sounds good I really only have two questions.

1. How deep is the monument mechanic, or as they call them, "legendary buildings? I'm suspicious this will be the part of the mod I am the most disappointed in.
2. More details on how we can protect ourselves from illness. I quite enjoyed building up my hospitals in CK2 so I hope we get even more depth in terms of that gameplay.
 
I was disappointed in the DD myself. It hardly give any new information, apart, maybe, telling that disease will affect the full bodies of character. But that's not systemic, purely a graphical update.

I would have loved to hear something new about the Legends system myself since disease are a bit more straightforward to understand and we already got them in CK2 in Reaper's due.

Yeah I actually think the pictures told us a lot more than anything the text did. It mostly repeated what was already found in the DLC description and reinforced some cool things I think most fans are excited about. That being said they said the next two dev diaries were going to be beefy so hopefully we get a lot of good information over the next two weeks.
 
I'm really glad this is a mechanic being introduced but I can't understand why you would do tours and tournaments first.
The bit underlying feature of T&T's free patch was the travel system, which means that you actually interact with the map on the way to places, which means that plagues between you and your destination can actually matter.
 
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I love this game and I appreciate the devs working on this title, but it still has some edges and one of them is how effortless it can feel to play if you're not an absolute beginner.

I don't see why we would have to play ahistorically to create difficult scenarios. If I want a historical start and "play tall" in say Bohemia, I should still face challenges that the duchy would historically face like dynamic political dilemmas. Being a ruler in the past was not a breeze.

Why does winning one tournament net us equipment to almost guarantee victory in future tournaments for both my character and my bookish descendants? Something must be made to limit the way artefacts give us bonuses regardless of the characteristics of the characters we play.

Why does it not take more than like two pilgrimages to be the next saint? Like why don't I have to live a pious life to generate piety? My devilish impaler has more piety than any other man in the near vicinity.

Why is it enough to attend hunts and feasts to generate enough prestige to be famous and respected globally? I feel like it's just too easy to get these resources regardless of what I do. It's like I'm failing upwards.

Being a King with Royal Court is easy mode if anything because of how relatively cheap grandeur is to gain. It's almost trivial to get it as a smaller kingdom.

Dynasty perks mean that all my descendants benefit from my accomplishments regardless of who they are. Which is like foolproof.

Late game everyone is... perfect. Everyone marries everyone regardless of inheritance outlook. Getting allies to fight battles for you miles away from their holdings is almost guaranteed. No one challenges my rule when my army is away. My unlanded courtiers always support me unless they're involved in an assassination plot. History is drama, but the drama rarely happens at home as much as it appears to have done historically. I think that's a shame.

Do we really disagree that a game that doesn't challenge your rule in even an immersive way is kinda dull after a while?
Can I like this post twice?
 
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I love this game and I appreciate the devs working on this title, but it still has some edges and one of them is how effortless it can feel to play if you're not an absolute beginner.

I don't see why we would have to play ahistorically to create difficult scenarios. If I want a historical start and "play tall" in say Bohemia, I should still face challenges that the duchy would historically face like dynamic political dilemmas. Being a ruler in the past was not a breeze.

Why does winning one tournament net us equipment to almost guarantee victory in future tournaments for both my character and my bookish descendants? Something must be made to limit the way artefacts give us bonuses regardless of the characteristics of the characters we play.

Why does it not take more than like two pilgrimages to be the next saint? Like why don't I have to live a pious life to generate piety? My devilish impaler has more piety than any other man in the near vicinity.

Why is it enough to attend hunts and feasts to generate enough prestige to be famous and respected globally? I feel like it's just too easy to get these resources regardless of what I do. It's like I'm failing upwards.

Being a King with Royal Court is easy mode if anything because of how relatively cheap grandeur is to gain. It's almost trivial to get it as a smaller kingdom.

Dynasty perks mean that all my descendants benefit from my accomplishments regardless of who they are. Which is like foolproof.

Late game everyone is... perfect. Everyone marries everyone regardless of inheritance outlook. Getting allies to fight battles for you miles away from their holdings is almost guaranteed. No one challenges my rule when my army is away. My unlanded courtiers always support me unless they're involved in an assassination plot. History is drama, but the drama rarely happens at home as much as it appears to have done historically. I think that's a shame.

Do we really disagree that a game that doesn't challenge your rule in even an immersive way is kinda dull after a while?
While we're on the subject, "Pure-Blooded" should not be a positive trait, at least outside of prestige gain. Generations of inbreeding does not result in the ultimate lifeform, it results in a bald, lame, sterile, seizure-prone abomination, who is so inbred that it can't even close its mouth.
 
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