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Tinto Talks #13 - 22nd of May 2024

Welcome to another Tinto Talks, where we give out top-secret information about our upcoming unannounced game with the code name Project Caesar. This time we will touch a little bit on the aspect of religion in this game.

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Every country, pop, or character has a religion they adhere to. This impacts their relationship with the place they currently are, and their relationship with others in the world.


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This is the religious setup of Aragon in 1337.

Every religion in Project Caesar belongs to a Religion Group, such as Christianity or Paganism. Fellow religions in the same group consider each other to be merely Heretic, whereas religions in different groups condemn each other as Heathen.

Every religion has a specific view of other religions as well, that ranges from Kindred to Enemy, which impacts relations between countries of different faiths, and how populations of another faith view your country.

Each country also has their own tolerance of their true faith, of heretics, and of heathens, which impacts how happy or angry the population will be depending on which country they belong to.


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The Same Religion here, is from the law relating to valid heirs.

The religious unity of your country has a really large impact on the satisfaction of your Clergy Estate.

Important to know is that in Project Caesar, you just do not send missionaries to your locations and eventually they have changed religion. Here conversion is a slower process, which relies on government activities and infrastructure.


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A unique building for Muslim countries that has a tiny impact on conversion.

Each religion belongs to a group, which impacts which tolerance is applied and how religions interact with each other. Religions in the same group are viewed as heretics, but those of another group as heathens.

The groups we currently have are, but that may change as we continue to develop the game.
  • Christian
  • Muslim
  • Eastern
  • Dharmic
  • Zoroastrian
  • Manichean
  • Judean
  • Andean
  • Pagan

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The current Christian religions. Take into account that they are very much WIP!

In some games we have made there have not been any major differences between religions, merely being different modifiers, and while some religions in Project Caesar are still only a few modifiers, many will have mechanics. Right now, we have made unique mechanics for Catholicism, Orthodoxy, Miaphysitism, the various Protestants, Muslims, Buddhists, Shinto, Nahuatl, Hinduism & the Inti religion. Each of these will get their own unique later development diary.

Now every religion will still have some modifiers that describe them, in many cases it is things that enable or disable certain mechanics. Some examples include the fact that countries with Jain as their state religion can not start wars without a casus belli, and that Calvinist countries will never reroll the dice in a battle, as everything is preordained.

Stay tuned for next week, where we talk about another completely new feature that adds flavor to the game.

Sadly, I can’t reply today, as I am at some management thingie in Stockholm, but @Pavía will help you out!
 
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This is not a complaint, merely a question, but will there be any more Christian faiths added? You have all done a great job but I LOVE some solid granularity!
 
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Hey Paradox! I saw the 1337 map, and it has a mistake in Poland because in 1337 Kujavia (including Inowrocław and Gniewkowo (which is not shown on the map)) and Dobrzyń Land were under rule of the Teutonic Order (I cant send links so google up Polish-Teutonic War (1326-1332))
+ Polish King Took Lands in Kujavia from Przemysł (Duke of Inowrocław) Władysław & Bolesław (Dukes of Dobrzyń) and gave them the lands of Sieradz (to Przemysł) and Łęczyca (to Władysław and Bolesław) Is it possible to fix at this point or its too late?
-desperado30
-the file is the map that i saw
 

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I really dislike the non-dice rerolling. It's hilarious and I had a good laugh, but it's quite gamey.

Religion mechanics are fine when referring to the actual organization of the faith - like catholic countries belonging to the Papal-IO or the church siphoning away wealth via indulgences - or religious taboos like wine for muslims.
But soldiers fighting worse because their country thinks rerolling dice is against the will of the lord goes right against the "believable world" goal set in TT #1
 
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The problem with declaring China to be Buddhist is that it's exclusive. Because all pops can only have 1 religion, this means every single pop is a Buddhist. That's just silly, what of all the traditional practices, cults etc. That are not Buddhist? What of Chinese clergy. Will every clergyman in china be a monk? Seems very limiting historically speaking.

I really hope this stance is reconsidered because it's just not accurate IMO. There should be a Chinese religion that is merely very friendly to Buddhists.
Representing the Chinese 'systems of beliefs' is difficult and complex, indeed, and I think that it wouldn't be possible to have an entirely accurate depiction of them, because of this complexity. However, we're trying to depict them in the best possible way to make it work with the different game systems.
 
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The advantage of detailed mountain passes and oasis vis a vis impassable mountains and deserts: it is awesome from military, logistics and expansion points of view

The disadvantage: it looks so damn ugly with political or religious mapmodes
 
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I wonder what the mechanism for Anglican will be. Perhaps a representation of high vs. low anglican, where you determine which direction the church goes in from a high Anglican approach which is essentially Catholicism just with the king at its head rather than the pope all the way to puritanism. Where you are on the scale could influence both your relationship with other religions, the conversion speed to Anglicanism from other religions, the happiness of non-Anglican pops, i.e. high Anglican more palatable for catholic pops and Lutheran and Calvinist pops preferring to be closer (if not all the way) to puritanism etc. You could also have different modifiers, e.g. High-Anglican resulting in puritan leaning pops emigrating to the colonies giving a boost to colonisation, while a more puritanical leaning church might get some military buffs. At least this is what I could think of on the spot but probably Johan et al. have come up with something even better. :)
 
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I thought you would divide Hinduism like the CK3 team did. Not against it, just curious. We see yellow and blue spots in India too. Yellow I imagine is Jain, but what is blue? Tamil religion? Islam (would be weird in those areas)?

Red dots in northern Russia are that weird heretic religion you mentioned, strigolnichestvo, right?

I get that many areas are impossible to truly convey in terms of religion, as we know close to nothing, but I think the Western Africa region is pretty documented, maybe you could add some particular pagan religions there, like in North America.

Anyway, really excited for it.
 
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All of this is really cool. I like to see a much more diverse world (especially considering that the Animist blob is just a massive placeholder). Just a few questions, though:
1. I see 3-4 religions in modern-day Mexico, which is pretty cool, but are they part of the Pagan religious group or, just like the Andean religions, of another group entirely?
2. About the (very much WIP, as I can see) Andean group: considering that it is a whole group, does that mean that we will actually see differences between the faiths of various people of the area (the religion of the chimu, for instance, was somewhat different from that of the Incans)?
3. Will most religions get their unique mechanics and quirks, or will it be like in EU4 where some religions share the same mechanic (like Coptic and Zoroastrian share the holy site mechanic, of Alcheringa, Fetishist, Hindu and Norse all share the same cult/personal deity thing with slight variations between them)
4. You have mentioned "organized religions", does that mean that the whole reform religion to do basically anything other than existing of Native American religions will be back, or is it there just to group many religions from many different religion groups, or something else entirely?
5. About relations between different religions: will they be completely static or will there be events that may change that, just like muslim religious schools in EU4?

Last, as already pointed out in a comment:
  • Please rename Nahuatl and Inti to Teotl and Huacaist respectively. Nahuatl is a language and Inti is just one god, which was secondary even among the Incas until the 1440s, not to mention all the other dominant regional cultures in 1337. Teotl is a Nahuatl word for divinity, and Huaca a sort of Andean fetish/god.
Nāhuatl is a name that refers to multiple Uto-Aztecan languages (because there are more than 20 different varieties of Nāhuatl if i remember correctly), with Nāhuatl being the one we usually think about, other than the official language of the Aztec Empire (the word nāhautl itself means "clear-sounding", which has little to do with religion), and Inti is just a god of various Andean religions that in many faiths of the area is important, but not the most important (sometimes even less important than the moon goddess). So it would be better to rename those to something different, and I like the names proposed in the comment (so Nahuatl -> Tēōtl(-ism?) and Inti -> Huaca/Wak'a(-ism?)). The latter might not be a problem if there are more religions with different main gods though.
 
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The Distinction between true faith - heretic - heathen is a bit simplistic. Protestants of different faith would work better with each other then protestants and catholics. It would also be an important ascpect if displaced pops are looking for a diaspora. Notably the calvinists in France after 1685 settled mainly into anglican England and lutheran parts of Germany.
 
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My feedback would be that while you guys have added the main players of the proto-Reformation (such as Hussitism and Lollardy) as well as the Magisterial Reformation (like Anglicanism and Lutheranism), it appears y’all neglected to include denominations of the Radical Reformation particularly the Anabaptists, either as one denomination or multiple (like splitting them between Mennonites and Amish and Zwinglians, etc)

Granted, this radical Christian movement was never adopted as the state religion in any country, but it spread among the population in Switzerland, Germany and the Low Countries. While some were pacifists, a number who adhered to this radical sect engaged in rebellion, as was the case of Thomas Muntzer who led the Peasant’s War (which had other factors and not just religion, I admit)

Lastly, regarding religion in the colonies, in EU4 the colonies would almost always take the religion of the colonizing nation, but that really wasn’t always the case especially in the Thirteen Colonies. In the Thirteen Colonies, most settlers were a hodgepodge of fringe Christian movements; the policies of King Charles I and his Archbishop of Canterbury, William Laud (who was trying to enforce religious unity/conformity in England) pushed many non-conformists to leave England for the colonies, resulting in a mostly non-Anglican colonial demographic: many tended to be Congregationalists (the Puritans), Baptists, Presbyterians (which I suppose can be branched under Calvinism for simplicity’s sake), and smaller movements like Quakers and Mennonites.

Just a few suggestions to address. Thanks.
 
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I know others have already stated this, but I would also like to express the opinion that if you're going to have so many granular sects of Christianity you should really also split up Shi'ite Islam, preferably into Ismailis, Zaydis, Twelvers, Alawites, Druze (though those aren't technically Muslims), and, after they become a thing, Alevis. The differences between the various Sunni schools isn't really big enough to justify splitting them up IMO (maybe have it be a country modifier), but the difference between the Shia sects are about as big as the differences between Hussitism, Lollardy, Lutheranism, and Calvanism, which you have as all separate religions.
 
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I'm wondering if there will be a mechanic to simulate attempts at reunification between the Catholic and Eastern Orthodox churches. Possibly extended to include the Miaphysite and Nestorian churches as well. Would be an interesting alternative to just trying to convert pops.

Imo this would also be important towards representing (and possibly preventing) the splits that occurred within Protestantism during the Reformation.
 
The advantage of detailed mountain passes and oasis vis a vis impassable mountains and deserts: it is awesome from military, logistics and expansion points of view

The disadvantage: it looks so damn ugly with political or religious mapmodes
Actually, we can see from the Spain map that, just like in current EU4, owned impassable terrain does get coloured in. Though I do think it should be a bit more generous, vis a vis the mountains between Aragon and France, it feels like two of those should be coloured in Aragon's colours. Also possibly split the mountains between Comminge and Aragon into two so the north can be coloured Blue when France unifies and the south coloured in Aragon's shade
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