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Tinto Talks #14 - 29th of May 2024

Welcome everyone to where we talk about our completely secret, not yet announced game. In today's Tinto Talks we will delve into a completely new feature.

A small reminder, this is very much a WiP, and nothing is final.

The core of this system was one of the first things I designed back in the spring of 2020, a feature that could be described as both a narrative and mechanical guide for the game. This is something that has been inspired by the Incident System from EU4, and also by the International Crisis mechanic of Victoria 2, but it is not really like any of those.

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Today is when we introduce our new Situation System.

So what is a “Situation” then? Good question. You could describe it as content that involves multiple countries over a period of time. In Project Caesar, we are using this feature to create a historical narrative that creates different experiences, as our goal is to have an immersive and varied experience for the player.

A Situation can have unique actions, events that trigger, and other types of unique content, and each of them will have its own UI and mapmode.

If a situation may involve or affect you, it will show with an alert, in the new color of purple!

Let's take a look at some of the situations we have in the game right now.

Black Death
This was the first situation we created, and it has been going through many revisions during the last four years.

-XaxeJWLErGyZ1uIEMzMCTXOKKF4a313QiYby_JEG2SM2VJVw6Gz9QB44Vs7ShAo_OkfOGAVGbDq6hPQYQmOECNtf_mb5A4T0bQqIzU_zMUbLyvEYRiQMxfrImwwoyvmbrlXHVTZcBIRIZQjz8-cOno

Black death can be 1346, random or off, and origin can be historical or random.

Usually, it will happen from 1346, as the Bubonic Plague appears somewhere in Central Asia and starts spreading through the old world, killing 40-60% of the population of the affected areas.

It spreads through adjacencies, moving armies, or through trade. There are ways you can attempt to alleviate this, but the efficiency of it is low, and the cost is high. You can try to isolate your court, expel the sick, blame minorities, and other very efficient ways to deal with the problem.

6iCwY8FdImU5oafjrWJnQ6LwAvDhPE4x0TCcyT-Yb5lNYxI7yxnM0NYWUCjjjQU2wbHaXf2R-ZKIWOpi3mEVIQB_oC9p_B9JSef5s8pDRALDaJp9IXyqkuXhN5vw_nIMIcu_9UzNF6nHY_6-3qenujo

Slowly spreading centrally, but some traders have already taken it into Italy...


Italian Wars
In the Age of Discovery, this is probably the most important situation for anyone in Western Europe. It is about control over Italy and will happen as soon as a French or Iberian Major Power or the Emperor declares war on an Italian Power.


There will be up to six different leagues that will fight over control of Italy. There is a French league, an Iberian league, the Emperor's league, and up to 3 Italian leagues. The first two will dynamically select their leaders based on strength calculations.

If one league gets hegemony over Italy, i.e. owning over 60% of the region either through conquest or diplomacy, then they will win. The Italians can also win by making sure the foreign leagues are destroyed through a special peace deal.

Leagues can be abandoned and anyone owning locations in Italy can join one of them.

The situation allows enemies and rivals of foreign league leaders to intervene and assist the defending Italians and it also grants access to unique interactions in order to send aid of any kind, attract cheaper condottieri and even create a new Italian league.

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This is how the situation would look if it fired in 1337 if Austria was to be the Holy Roman Emperor and Aragon was the dominant power in Iberia with vested interests in Italy.

Red Turban Rebellions
This is rather likely to happen as soon as the Yuan Empire ends up at low stability.

It will create an international organization called The Red Turbans, which will get a lot of rebel countries.

The situation can happen to Yuán after 1350 if their stability drops below 25 while also either of their estates is not satisfied. The requirements are harsh, but once you reach the Age of Discovery you have avoided the situation.

With that being said, the situation will most likely fire in a playthrough. During this period, the Red Turban Rebels will spawn as an international organization which is in direct opposition to the Huángdì, the Chinese emperor. While the situation is going on, events will pop up that force Yuán to release historical Chinese tags in their historical order (so the first Sòng is released, then Wú, then Tiānwán, etc.), which join the IO and immediately declare their own, independent war on Yuan.

Each rebel nation is playable when it spawns, and they can wage war with each other too.

The countries spawned during this situation have a custom loyalty value which describes how, well, loyal they are to Yuán which goes from -100 to 100 and grows or shrinks depending on their opinion of Yuán. Most rebel nations will start at -100 as they actively fought against Yuan. However, some nations spawned through the situation represent the Mongolian generals who gained a lot of autonomy, but were still fighting for Yuán’s cause. They would spawn with +50 Loyalty. If any rebel country reaches more than 0 loyalty, they will automatically leave the Red Turban Rebels IO.

In order to end the situation as Yuán, you have to regain internal stability, but also ensure that the Red Turban Rebels have no members left anymore after 20 years of the start of the situation. All states spawned through the situation with over 50 loyalty will then automatically be annexed by Yuán.

On the other hand, the situation also ends once any rebel tag owns the majority of China (around 70%) of all the locations there. If that happens the rebel tag which fulfills this requirement will assume the Imperial Throne and take over the tag of China.

The situation unlocks special diplomatic actions for Yuán and the rebels alike. Yuán can grant titles to any released state that is not at war with it, giving a significant loyalty and opinion boost in exchange for a hefty fee. They can also negotiate with local rebellions which decreases the process for a rebellion to break out and they can call loyalist countries (those with +50 loyalty) to their wars against the Red Turban Rebels. Meanwhile, the rebel states have a special cb against Yuan and other rebel states with a vastly reduced warscore cost for Chinese locations. They also get access to an action that allows them to rein in a conquered area, greatly reducing the local integration speed.

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Green are your loyal servants, orange are the rebels, red is the strongest of the rebels.

Other situations include things like the Western Schism, the Hundred Years War & Sengoku Jidai. We will talk more about those in future Tinto Talks.

If you have a suggestion of what you think would be an important historical event that should be a situation, then please post them here!

Next week though, we will talk about something that many people have asked for repeatedly.
 
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If you have a suggestion of what you think would be an important historical event that should be a situation, then please post them here!

Famines (very numerous)
Printing Press (moveable bronze type, created in Korea 1380)
New World discovery
 
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If I can let the plague break out somewhere else, would America be OK? And if so, I would like to see the situation where the first discoverers not only bring smallpox to America, but also the plague to Europe. I imagine that would be very interesting if not only the original inhabitants were decimated when America was discovered.
 
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These situations sound really cool, and having so many of them sounds awesome. One of the subtle things I've always liked about HoI4 is how that game almost has a plot to the gameplay, with acts and a climax thanks to how the core mechanics gradually get put into play, framed by the narrative. And I think this could give the new game a similar quality, albeit not as grand and overarching as the war in HoI4.

On the other hand I just played an EU4 game as hussite Bohemia, and after reloading the league wars twice to achieve a hussite empire (I kept getting locked out because I misunderstood the mechanics of the war) I sincerely hope you've learnt a lot since... when was it you updated that? May 8th?
 
Will the colonisation of the Americas (Tordesillas, the Requerimento, conquistadors, Christianisation, spread of european diseases, the triangular trade, etc) be treated as a situation or just as seperate events?
 
Welcome everyone to where we talk about our completely secret, not yet announced game. In today's Tinto Talks we will delve into a completely new feature.

A small reminder, this is very much a WiP, and nothing is final.

The core of this system was one of the first things I designed back in the spring of 2020, a feature that could be described as both a narrative and mechanical guide for the game. This is something that has been inspired by the Incident System from EU4, and also by the International Crisis mechanic of Victoria 2, but it is not really like any of those.

NEstiqKbud0wL7sM9ObfmWMQ22dYRdY50X5Xf1JowTW62l5_BI8tPZTbdBE5LOUEcp4ouiaU2ORALYgSoN9dNhFDM3q4sDfxQ16519VtOiltOEOUs6E9OIFerKb8DKuxrk_nvPCZftnB0igZwiE6Y7Y


Today is when we introduce our new Situation System.

So what is a “Situation” then? Good question. You could describe it as content that involves multiple countries over a period of time. In Project Caesar, we are using this feature to create a historical narrative that creates different experiences, as our goal is to have an immersive and varied experience for the player.

A Situation can have unique actions, events that trigger, and other types of unique content, and each of them will have its own UI and mapmode.

If a situation may involve or affect you, it will show with an alert, in the new color of purple!

Let's take a look at some of the situations we have in the game right now.

Black Death
This was the first situation we created, and it has been going through many revisions during the last four years.

-XaxeJWLErGyZ1uIEMzMCTXOKKF4a313QiYby_JEG2SM2VJVw6Gz9QB44Vs7ShAo_OkfOGAVGbDq6hPQYQmOECNtf_mb5A4T0bQqIzU_zMUbLyvEYRiQMxfrImwwoyvmbrlXHVTZcBIRIZQjz8-cOno

Black death can be 1346, random or off, and origin can be historical or random.

Usually, it will happen from 1346, as the Bubonic Plague appears somewhere in Central Asia and starts spreading through the old world, killing 40-60% of the population of the affected areas.

It spreads through adjacencies, moving armies, or through trade. There are ways you can attempt to alleviate this, but the efficiency of it is low, and the cost is high. You can try to isolate your court, expel the sick, blame minorities, and other very efficient ways to deal with the problem.

6iCwY8FdImU5oafjrWJnQ6LwAvDhPE4x0TCcyT-Yb5lNYxI7yxnM0NYWUCjjjQU2wbHaXf2R-ZKIWOpi3mEVIQB_oC9p_B9JSef5s8pDRALDaJp9IXyqkuXhN5vw_nIMIcu_9UzNF6nHY_6-3qenujo

Slowly spreading centrally, but some traders have already taken it into Italy...


Italian Wars
In the Age of Discovery, this is probably the most important situation for anyone in Western Europe. It is about control over Italy and will happen as soon as a French or Iberian Major Power or the Emperor declares war on an Italian Power.


There will be up to six different leagues that will fight over control of Italy. There is a French league, an Iberian league, the Emperor's league, and up to 3 Italian leagues. The first two will dynamically select their leaders based on strength calculations.

If one league gets hegemony over Italy, i.e. owning over 60% of the region either through conquest or diplomacy, then they will win. The Italians can also win by making sure the foreign leagues are destroyed through a special peace deal.

Leagues can be abandoned and anyone owning locations in Italy can join one of them.

The situation allows enemies and rivals of foreign league leaders to intervene and assist the defending Italians and it also grants access to unique interactions in order to send aid of any kind, attract cheaper condottieri and even create a new Italian league.

wM45LY6Ss0cjAShI3Oyo89Fr99sC5LYwTOmgTyBgfofucUR3MSPUKnhzCfzlabHc0kScmb8t5fZwZF3QVmzETJu3Ay97PmBiyVBPRzpajHfwAVAetl5pnoXNXOa16y9fLJCEx3YQQUodvOZy9Kf8c-E

This is how the situation would look if it fired in 1337 if Austria was to be the Holy Roman Emperor and Aragon was the dominant power in Iberia with vested interests in Italy.

Red Turban Rebellions
This is rather likely to happen as soon as the Yuan Empire ends up at low stability.

It will create an international organization called The Red Turbans, which will get a lot of rebel countries.

The situation can happen to Yuán after 1350 if their stability drops below 25 while also either of their estates is not satisfied. The requirements are harsh, but once you reach the Age of Discovery you have avoided the situation.

With that being said, the situation will most likely fire in a playthrough. During this period, the Red Turban Rebels will spawn as an international organization which is in direct opposition to the Huángdì, the Chinese emperor. While the situation is going on, events will pop up that force Yuán to release historical Chinese tags in their historical order (so the first Sòng is released, then Wú, then Tiānwán, etc.), which join the IO and immediately declare their own, independent war on Yuan.

Each rebel nation is playable when it spawns, and they can wage war with each other too.

The countries spawned during this situation have a custom loyalty value which describes how, well, loyal they are to Yuán which goes from -100 to 100 and grows or shrinks depending on their opinion of Yuán. Most rebel nations will start at -100 as they actively fought against Yuan. However, some nations spawned through the situation represent the Mongolian generals who gained a lot of autonomy, but were still fighting for Yuán’s cause. They would spawn with +50 Loyalty. If any rebel country reaches more than 0 loyalty, they will automatically leave the Red Turban Rebels IO.

In order to end the situation as Yuán, you have to regain internal stability, but also ensure that the Red Turban Rebels have no members left anymore after 20 years of the start of the situation. All states spawned through the situation with over 50 loyalty will then automatically be annexed by Yuán.

On the other hand, the situation also ends once any rebel tag owns the majority of China (around 70%) of all the locations there. If that happens the rebel tag which fulfills this requirement will assume the Imperial Throne and take over the tag of China.

The situation unlocks special diplomatic actions for Yuán and the rebels alike. Yuán can grant titles to any released state that is not at war with it, giving a significant loyalty and opinion boost in exchange for a hefty fee. They can also negotiate with local rebellions which decreases the process for a rebellion to break out and they can call loyalist countries (those with +50 loyalty) to their wars against the Red Turban Rebels. Meanwhile, the rebel states have a special cb against Yuan and other rebel states with a vastly reduced warscore cost for Chinese locations. They also get access to an action that allows them to rein in a conquered area, greatly reducing the local integration speed.

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Green are your loyal servants, orange are the rebels, red is the strongest of the rebels.

Other situations include things like the Western Schism, the Hundred Years War & Sengoku Jidai. We will talk more about those in future Tinto Talks.

If you have a suggestion of what you think would be an important historical event that should be a situation, then please post them here!

Next week though, we will talk about something that many people have asked for repeatedly.

ooh, am i seeing it right that we'll have quite many unoccupied/unowned locations in 1337? i mean the unlabeled and unbordered parts of non-coastal North Africa, Siberia east of the Urals, northeastern Tibet / upper Amdo, the Himalayas, the Arakan Mountains and the Kachin Hills, the Shan Hills, today's northwestern Vietnam, Taiwan and possibly the Philippines.
 
i hope this mechanic is full moddable. I just want to create a lot of sitations in Anatolia :)
I think the goal with situations is, like with IOs, to generalize a lot of the principles of bespoke systems that they've put into games in the past and make it one skeleton scripting framework that they can hang all sorts of different designs off of.

So, I imagine so.
 
Two suggestions for situations that popped into my mind (though I suspect you do plan to make those already...)

1) Rise of Hussites in Bohemia

2) Time of Troubles in Russia - the pretenders, the Poles invading, the tzarevich being ressurected... maybe... several times... craziness, would love to see that one.
 
A situation could be the "War on Barbary pirates", to stop the Barbary pirates from plundering Mediterranean coasts.
This would see the Christian maritime nations (in the Mediterranean ofc) againts Barbary states, and maybe a powerful muslim nation with some influence in the region (like the Ottomans were). The extent of this must not be underestimated, almost one million people were kidnapped and sold as slaves and entire historical cities were destroyed over the years (the case which I know the most about is Sardinia, where literally all coastal cities were destroyed or abandoned for this reason).
The incursions kept going until between XVIII and XIX century, when at first the Barbary nations were payed to stop and then, with colonisation, they weren't possible anymore.
This isn't 100% historical as there wasn't a proper conventional war (at least that I'm aware of), but it is totally plausible and realistic in my opinion.
(I admit I'm not an expert at all on the topic, I'm sure there is someone with much more knowledge than me)
 
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Is it going to be achievement and iron man compatible to turn off the black death, or to change it's location to idk, south Africa or deep in Siberia?
I think that would be a bit too exploitative or cheesy, in my opinion. As for the ledger information I think is fine either way, but I am curios about their ironman compatibility too.

PS. Much appreciation for all the great work and to all devs!!!
 
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To cross-post from the other thread, my thoughts on a situation for the collapse of the Serbian Empire:
Altho what you wrote here is partly true, Serbian Empire was far from doomed from the start. Dusan had massive mersanary army and he kept nobility in check, while the Dusan's code did straignten Serbia internally, allowing Serbia to collect taxes from the whole state. You also fail to understand that Empire didn't decentralize immediately after his death, nobility was by absolute majority loyal to his son Uros, example of this is Assembly at Skoplje (April 1357) where nobility rejected Simeon Uros' claim to the throne and this eventually led to Simeon's defeat in Zeta in 1358. Serbian Empire was centralized until 1363, which is made clear by Serbian victory against 5,000 Ottoman mercenaries led by Mathew Kantakuzenos at Battle of Drama in 1357, and the fact that Uros menaged repel full scale invasion from Hungary (led by Lois I) in 1359.
Decentralisation happened when most of Dusan's nobility died out along with Vojislav Vojinovic (who protected Uros and kept his uncompitance hidden). After his death Empire began to lose central authority which Uros tried to prevent by crowning Vukasin Mrnjavcevic as his co-ruler which initialy worked but after few years Vukasin would prove himself as not loyal which led to Uros allying with Rascian nobility and losing a battle in 1369, making Vukasin defacto most powerful man in the Empire, Rascian nobility despised Vukasin and saw him as usurper which even further decentralized the state.
 
I posted this in the Situation specific thread, but posting here too for visibility.

Perhaps one potential Situation would be something to simulate how Burgundy consolidated the Netherlands? It could be a situation involving all countries in the Low Countries and end up with one of the countries (either a large French duchy, a German state or a Dutch state) inheriting/purchasing the other countries (probably borrowing mechanics from the Rise of the Ottomans situation re how they consolidate the other minors). Then the 'Burgundy' could either have an increased chance of no heir/sucession crisis or last long enough to form Lotharingia.

Hopefully not too deterministic but that may be a way of organically simulating what happened in real life. I get that there are already PU mechanics, but I'm not sure they would fully model how quickly Burgundy grew in real life. Given how important Austrian/Spanish Netherlands was in real life I do think its worth a bit of railroading to try and make something similar happen, instead of leaving it to the base mechanics.
 
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Project Caesar is looking great! I'm looking forward to what you guys have prepared. Do you think you could include a "Fall of Constantinople" situation to represent the complex negotiations, wars and maneuvers between the Empire of the Romans, the Ottomans, the Papacy, the Italian merchant republics and maybe even some of the Anatolian beyliks? It could include things like granting trade concessions,, conversion to Catholicism or resistance to it, releasing pretenders to the throne, calling crusades etc.
 
Agree 100%.

Players want to see an Ottoman Empire, and strong Russia, and want to experience the Reformation and Wars of Religion.

Playerswant THEIR choices to change history.


I've been doing these games for 25+ years now, and many times I've been suckered in by "we can simulate everything, we don't need narrative guidelines" only for game launches to be rocky, and having to readjust and making sure historical narratives are happening often enough.
This one post has almost entirely destroyed my interest in Project Caesar. I don't want a game where only the player's choices change history, and the AI keeps on mimicking actual history even when it has no reason to do so. I want a game where the AI reacts to the world around it in a way that makes sense, even if that would prevent something that historically happened from happening. It's frustrating to hear that apparently the design philosophy is directly opposite to what I want. Maybe I'll be able to get something like what I want by modding out all situations and DHEs, but probably not.
 
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Can some of the later crusades be made into situations, or am I missing the point? My other idea was the resistance to the Ottomans in the 14th and 15th century as the implosion of the Serbian and Bulgarian tsardoms created a lot of small despots in this part of the Balkans and was one of the biggest reasons for the Ottoman success in this period.
 
The more I read those Tinto Talks, the more I am optimist for this game... I really hope it will be as good as you make us believe with all these "talks" at release.

I'm a big fan of this mechanic. It will help the game simulate historical event, while not being stuck behind events only ( which would have been really boring to me. Relieve the hundred years war with just railroaded event would have been a shame to me ). This mechanic make us experience historical event while being to influence them, and I think that is the best choice possible.

I do have a question tho. Can a Situation base on historical event be avoided ? For example, let's say the Hundred Years War would have started 100 years later than the start date ( I'm giving this example, because idk what else I could use to illustrate, since we don't have every Situation rn ), can we not trigger it by idk, not having the condition for it to trigger ? I hope you can understand what I want to say... If no, then I'll try to reformulate.

Other question, easier to understand : when can we expect to have tinto talks on the others Situation you mentionned ( especially the hundred years war, I really want to know how this one will work ) ?

Last question, but this one is really just because I'm not sure that I understood correctly : if a league attack a member of an Italian league, every members of both leagues will be dragged into the war ? Or only the members of the defense side ? And what if a member of an Italian league attack a member of another Italian league ? Would that be a 1 vs 1 ( plus allies ofc ) or league vs league or 1 vs defensor league ?
This system plus the IO system make me think that it will be harder to blob in Italy or HRE ( or Europe in general tbf ) and I am all for that. It is to easy in EU4 to conquer Italy or HRE while Italy was never totally conquered by an exterior power and same for the HRE until Napoleon. Plus the control system... I am totally hyped, 'cause it seem like really big empire would be harder to do

Keep up the good work, I really can't wait to see the final product :D
 
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Altho what you wrote here is partly true, Serbian Empire was far from doomed from the start. Dusan had massive mersanary army and he kept nobility in check, while the Dusan's code did straignten Serbia internally, allowing Serbia to collect taxes from the whole state. You also fail to understand that Empire didn't decentralize immediately after his death, nobility was by absolute majority loyal to his son Uros, example of this is Assembly at Skoplje (April 1357) where nobility rejected Simeon Uros' claim to the throne and this eventually led to Simeon's defeat in Zeta in 1358. Serbian Empire was centralized until 1363, which is made clear by Serbian victory against 5,000 Ottoman mercenaries led by Mathew Kantakuzenos at Battle of Drama in 1357, and the fact that Uros menaged repel full scale invasion from Hungary (led by Lois I) in 1359.
Decentralisation happened when most of Dusan's nobility died out along with Vojislav Vojinovic (who protected Uros and kept his uncompitance hidden). After his death Empire began to lose central authority which Uros tried to prevent by crowning Vukasin Mrnjavcevic as his co-ruler which initialy worked but after few years Vukasin would prove himself as not loyal which led to Uros allying with Rascian nobility and losing a battle in 1369, making Vukasin defacto most powerful man in the Empire, Rascian nobility despised Vukasin and saw him as usurper which even further decentralized the state.
It was decentralized enough during Dušan's ruler that you can have Hrelja secede from Serbia to the Byzantines and no one do anything about it. In general, though:

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