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Tinto Maps #5 - 7th of June 2024 - Italy

Hello everyone, and welcome to the fifth Tinto Maps! This week we will be sharing the map of Italy.

One comment before we start: we know that you might be eager to discuss other regions that may appear partially on the DD, such as the Balkans. Let’s try to keep the conversations separated in different threads, please; every region will get its own Tinto Maps, and we will show them and gather feedback in due time, in their own DD.

With that said, let’s start!:

Countries
Countries.jpg

The situation of Italy in 1337 is quite interesting. The main power in the peninsula is the Kingdom of Naples, ruled by King Robert I, who is also ruler of Provence, and a few minor countries in Northern Italy; his efforts towards the domination of Italy also made him the leader of the Guelph faction in Italy, which backs the Pope. Speaking of him, the seat of the Curia is at Avignon, and regaining control over the Papal States and moving it back to Rome might take some time and effort. Opposite to all of them, there is the Ghibelline faction, led by the Signoria of Milan, ruled by the Visconti dynasty. They are backed by other important powers in the Italian region, such as the Superb Republic of Genoa, or the Duchy of Verona, ruled by the dynasty of della Scala. There are also neutral powers, like the Republics of Venice or Siena, although they could be attracted to join one of the factions. And we also have foreign powers that have already set a foothold in Italy, such as the Crown of Aragon, which has established a branch of its dynasty as Kings of Sicilia, while also recently conquering some lands in Sardinia.

g&gs.png

Guelphs.jpg

Ghibellines.jpg

Guelphs and Ghibellines factions! They are International Organizations part of a Situation.

Dynasties
dynasties.png


Locations
Locations.jpg

There is an interesting density in Italy, especially in the North, where there are plenty of communes - the Italian city-states. You might also notice something a bit different from previous Paradox GSGs: Venice is not an island, but the location has lands around the lagoon. We aren’t 100% sure that this will be the final design, as we have a few ideas to try to keep its special position on an island inside the lagoon while addressing the issue of it being too small to appear in the map; in this regard, we’re open about feedback and ideas on the topic.

Provinces
Provinces.jpg

Any naming suggestions about the provinces are well-received, as usual.

Terrain
Climate.jpg

Topography.jpg

Vegetation.jpg

Three usual terrain layers. Something that I want to comment on is that we’ve been following this thread about ‘Revising Flatlands and hills’, and we are trying to get a bit more granularity in the Topographical map with the help of @SulphurAeron .

Cultures
Cultures.jpg

Italy is also a region with a sharp cultural division, and also plenty of minorities; although they don’t appear on the map, there are Italki Jews, or Greek and Albanian people in the South, among others.

Religions
Religion.jpg

Another boring region, with more than 90% of the population being Catholic, with most of the religious minorities being Italkim Jews and Orthodox Greeks. We're considering implementing Waldensians, although adding more diverging Catholic heresies/confessions is a bit of a low priority for us right now. As a side note, it might catch your eye the Krstjani of Bosnia; we’ll discuss them later on, in the Tinto Maps devoted to the Balkans.

Raw Goods
Raw Goods.jpg

Italy is a rich region with plenty of interesting raw materials.

Markets
Markets.jpg

There are three market centers in Italy: Genoa, Venice, and Naples (which was a very, very rich country in 1337, the wealthiest of the region). As usual, take into account that. 1. We don't script in the setup which locations belong to each market, they're automatically assigned to each market. 2. This starting distribution is not final, and it might change, as we do tweaks to the market access calculations over time.

Population
Pops Countries.jpg

Pops Locations.png

There is around 10.5M population in the Italian region as of now. Taking into account how divided the political landscape is, Naples looks scary…

And that’s all for this week! For the next one, we will be talking about the British Isles, with @SaintDaveUK . See you!
 
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Why isn't Glass being produced in Venice? Does the Faceting event still exist?
Glass is not a raw good, but a produced one.
 
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Is anyone else concerned about the huge difference in location density? Just compare Italy to the Balkans:

View attachment 1145051

One location in Hungary is 5-6 locations in Italy.
I just hope this wont make more dense countries automatically more powerful like with Germany and the rest of Europe in EU4

maybe because italy is more dense than hungary since always ?
i mean will you say next week Why England is more dense than Russia ? because even today its still is .
vast countries tend to have more spreaded cities than tight ones like those in western europe .
in this Era i think france alone have more population than the whole map we saw last week of eastern europe
 
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It will be easier to measure if you had a square location for reference purposes. Unfortunately, something seems to have happened with Memel
Should we recover Square Memel just for measuring purposes? So, we determine the size of a location in XX Square Memels?
 
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Please take into account the fact that in 1337 Carniola was not fully under the control of the Habsburgs.
These two areas Kočevje and Spittal an der Drau (marked in red) were owned by the Counts of Ortenburg. In 1374, after the extinction of the Counts of Ortenburg, these areas were also inherited by the Counts of Celje/Cilli.
These two areas were still in the possession of the Counts of Celjski called Ortenburg County (Ortenburška Grofija). In 1456, when the Counts of Celje died out, it came into Habsburg possession.

The area marked in blue, County in the March and Möttlig, was owned by the Counts of Gorizia of the Istrian branch until 1374. After their extinction, it was inherited by the Habsburgs, but then sold to the Counts of Celje/Cilli. This could be its own area in the game. And so, in 1456, this area also became the property of the Habsburgs.

View attachment 1145095
Very helpful map! I agree with your comment, Carniola was far from an unified entity in the 14th century. And in my opinion, it should not even be represented as just a "province" of Austria, or a direct part of Austria, but rather as a union or some sort of subject, alongside Styria, Carinthia and Austria, all seperate duchies ruled by the same ruler. I wonder what your view on that is.
 
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I wonder which ones are next. I think it will be Scandinavia, Balkans and Russia after British Isles, because anywhere that is not European looked very heavily work in progress.
 
It would be nice to have Parma have livestock as that would make sense due to it's famous products relating to it:
Parmigiano Reggiano
produced in Parma and Reggio, according to Wikipedia it was already being produced in a similar way to today in the 13th century.
Prosciutto di Parma

Wine in Modena and Reggio makes sense, as Aceto Balsamico is from there.



The area in which Parmigiano Reggiano can be produced, according to EU and Italian PDO legislation:
View attachment 1145136



Anyone who is actually from Emilia; feel free to correct me.
Sir, I'm completely on board with your proposal of Parmigiano Reggiano and Prosciutto di Parma, and this feedback suggestion is going to be pushed.
 
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Guys, change the trade goods in Bosnia and Croatia, where are your sources from? Wheat in Soli a province called after Salt? wtf is going on besides Krstjani weren't in Herzegovina they were Orthodox. This looks very much rushed in the Balkans perusual keep dick riding the HRE gg doomed. Change name from Project Caeser to Project Kaiser lapdogs gg.
 
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The Po Delta has changed dramatically during the period of Project Caesar. The current depiction is rather anachronistic, so I would recommend changing it to a more appropriate period -- see the reference maps below:

1717772198917.png

Translations of the more relevant list at the bottom right:

a. Bronze​
b. Ferro (pre-Roman)​
c. Roman period​
d. High Middle Ages​
e. 10th - 11th century​
f. 14th century​
g. Late 16th century​
h. First half of the 18th century​
i. First half of the 19th century​
1717772577415.png
This depiction on the left is during the Renaissance

















And a final one below, depicting 1604, because of the quality of the scan I took the liberty to trace the coast line being depicted in orange, which is superimposed on the modern boundaries
1717772817189.png
1717772891139.png





















EDIT:
I found some other maps that may be of help:

An alternate depiction of 1604 which depicts the "Taglio di Porto Viro":
An alternate depiction of 1604





















1740:
1717774514042.png























1717774785871.png

A bit blurry but the lines are more defined, the legend on the bottom right would be:
1. Main paleoalvees​
2. Paleodune​
3. Coastline of the late 17th century​
4. Coast line of 1735​
5. Coast line of 1835​
6. Coastline of 1954​
7. Current coastline and main sediment drift directions​
8. Sea and lagoon dikes​
9. Inland dikes against flooding from the sea​
10. Lagoon channels​
 
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Very good!

One thing I personally think could be changed is the terrain type for Verona, Peschiera, Lonigo and Vicenza, which should definitely be at least hills with the southern Garda hills, Lessinia, Monti Berici and Colli Euganei in the area, and Chioggia which should probably also be a marsh.
Also, no Seven Communes?
 
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