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Tinto Maps #5 - 7th of June 2024 - Italy

Hello everyone, and welcome to the fifth Tinto Maps! This week we will be sharing the map of Italy.

One comment before we start: we know that you might be eager to discuss other regions that may appear partially on the DD, such as the Balkans. Let’s try to keep the conversations separated in different threads, please; every region will get its own Tinto Maps, and we will show them and gather feedback in due time, in their own DD.

With that said, let’s start!:

Countries
Countries.jpg

The situation of Italy in 1337 is quite interesting. The main power in the peninsula is the Kingdom of Naples, ruled by King Robert I, who is also ruler of Provence, and a few minor countries in Northern Italy; his efforts towards the domination of Italy also made him the leader of the Guelph faction in Italy, which backs the Pope. Speaking of him, the seat of the Curia is at Avignon, and regaining control over the Papal States and moving it back to Rome might take some time and effort. Opposite to all of them, there is the Ghibelline faction, led by the Signoria of Milan, ruled by the Visconti dynasty. They are backed by other important powers in the Italian region, such as the Superb Republic of Genoa, or the Duchy of Verona, ruled by the dynasty of della Scala. There are also neutral powers, like the Republics of Venice or Siena, although they could be attracted to join one of the factions. And we also have foreign powers that have already set a foothold in Italy, such as the Crown of Aragon, which has established a branch of its dynasty as Kings of Sicilia, while also recently conquering some lands in Sardinia.

g&gs.png

Guelphs.jpg

Ghibellines.jpg

Guelphs and Ghibellines factions! They are International Organizations part of a Situation.

Dynasties
dynasties.png


Locations
Locations.jpg

There is an interesting density in Italy, especially in the North, where there are plenty of communes - the Italian city-states. You might also notice something a bit different from previous Paradox GSGs: Venice is not an island, but the location has lands around the lagoon. We aren’t 100% sure that this will be the final design, as we have a few ideas to try to keep its special position on an island inside the lagoon while addressing the issue of it being too small to appear in the map; in this regard, we’re open about feedback and ideas on the topic.

Provinces
Provinces.jpg

Any naming suggestions about the provinces are well-received, as usual.

Terrain
Climate.jpg

Topography.jpg

Vegetation.jpg

Three usual terrain layers. Something that I want to comment on is that we’ve been following this thread about ‘Revising Flatlands and hills’, and we are trying to get a bit more granularity in the Topographical map with the help of @SulphurAeron .

Cultures
Cultures.jpg

Italy is also a region with a sharp cultural division, and also plenty of minorities; although they don’t appear on the map, there are Italki Jews, or Greek and Albanian people in the South, among others.

Religions
Religion.jpg

Another boring region, with more than 90% of the population being Catholic, with most of the religious minorities being Italkim Jews and Orthodox Greeks. We're considering implementing Waldensians, although adding more diverging Catholic heresies/confessions is a bit of a low priority for us right now. As a side note, it might catch your eye the Krstjani of Bosnia; we’ll discuss them later on, in the Tinto Maps devoted to the Balkans.

Raw Goods
Raw Goods.jpg

Italy is a rich region with plenty of interesting raw materials.

Markets
Markets.jpg

There are three market centers in Italy: Genoa, Venice, and Naples (which was a very, very rich country in 1337, the wealthiest of the region). As usual, take into account that. 1. We don't script in the setup which locations belong to each market, they're automatically assigned to each market. 2. This starting distribution is not final, and it might change, as we do tweaks to the market access calculations over time.

Population
Pops Countries.jpg

Pops Locations.png

There is around 10.5M population in the Italian region as of now. Taking into account how divided the political landscape is, Naples looks scary…

And that’s all for this week! For the next one, we will be talking about the British Isles, with @SaintDaveUK . See you!
 
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Sorry if I miss some information on the concept of the project but looking pop map in Corsica : 542 K ? Does it mean 542 000 people ?
Because for the record, current Corsica has about 350 000 inhabitants and it's estimated at 164 000 in 1801.
You're looking at the country population map, which is why you see 542K over everything that Genoa owns.
 
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Hello, I live in the Aniene valley and I wanted to help you with the productions

1) Tivoli is famous for travertine, a marble that has been used since ancient Roman times for the construction of Rome's monuments. Bernini used it for the construction of St. Peter's Basilica.
2) Sabina have a good production of cherries. Palombara Sabina, the largest town in the area, is famous for a festival that has been celebrating them for more than 100 years (but the cultivation is much older)
3) Tuff is the historical production of the area of Bracciano and Viterbo. It is a light stone of volcanic origin used for the construction of houses
4) Roman wine is produced in the Castelli Romani area, Velletri is part of it, perhaps I would reverse the production of Palestrina olives
5) The area of Avezzano has within it the most preserved wooded areas in Central Italy. For years they have been exploited for the production of wood and cork
6) L'Aquila is famous for its saffron (and I can see that's there, well done)
 
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Sorry if I miss some information on the concept of the project but looking pop map in Corsica : 542 K ? Does it mean 542 000 people ?
Because for the record, current Corsica has about 350 000 inhabitants and it's estimated at 164 000 in 1801.
It’s the total population in the Republic of Genoa
 
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The borders and names for Slovenia are a bit weird.
View attachment 1145340
Here are my suggestions to rename the lands and change the borders.
Ljubljana should be named Kranj and merged with Bled and what I assume is Škofja Loka. Since their lords are not shown on the map I don't see why the lands are needed.
Besides the weird borders, Kočevje didn't exist yet. If I'm not mistaken Ribnica was more important, so it could be renamed to Ribnica. Or, this is a bit more wanky idea, it could be renamed to Auersperg after the castle and family that were the most powerful lords.
Novo Mesto and Postojna also didn't exist yet, but I don't know what the alternate name would be.

The borders are not so weird. On this map you can see that most of the Bled location is under Brixen adm Škofja Loka under Fraising. Kočevje is another problem, the province could be divided into two locations, one on Ribnica and the other on Mahovnik, when the people of Ortenburg start settling with Germans, the name Mahovnik would change to Kočevje. In 1247 Berthold, Patriarch of Aquileia, granted the area around Ribnica within the imperial March of Carniola to the Carinthian counts of Ortenburg. When the counts had received further estates in 1336 on the wooded plateau down to Kostel on the Kolpa River from the hands of Patriarch Bertram, they called for German-speaking settlers from Carinthia and Tyrol. In the following decades they established the town of Gottschee, which was first mentioned in a 1363 deed. The settlement received market rights in 1377 and town privileges in 1471. I don't know if they will want to simulate this situation or if they will go into such detail.
Scan10002_98.png


If you wanted to divide Carniola more correctly, it would be divided like this.
Bled owned by Brixen
Škofja Loka owned by Fraising
Kranj owned by the Ortenburgs
Ljubljana owned by the Habsburgs
Postojna owned by the Habsburgs
Prem owned by Duino
Ribnica owned by the Ortenburgs
Mahovnik/Kočevje owned by the Ortenburgs
Novo mesto/Krško owned by the Habsburgs
Metlika owned by Counts of Gorizia

But I think this is already too much from a developer's perspective.

1717833801009.png
 
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Rice was definitely not introduced in the 17th century. It was highly prized in the middle ages because it's a neutral food (it's white) so it doesn't affect your humors and was considered easy to digest. Popular combinations with rice were sugar, milk or almond milk, as they are all white too.
Rice cultivation in the Po valley started in the middle of the 15th century, by 1500 rice fields covered 5000 hectares and by 1550 50000 hectares.
Apologies for the hasty translation, you are correct! I meant farming on a scale relevant to the game's scope.
 
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Sorry if I miss some information on the concept of the project but looking pop map in Corsica : 542 K ? Does it mean 542 000 people ?
Because for the record, current Corsica has about 350 000 inhabitants and it's estimated at 164 000 in 1801.
I got triggered too, lol, before reading at the 2nd pop map.
Demographics in the island are growing quick, since it's not always been this, highly populated (and the way pops are distributed today completely differs with the past centuries).
It's difficult to depict realistic pops without knowing exactly how many they were. In the current simulation, for instance, Corsica has a total population of 60.914 and Sardinia, a total of 157.450 pops (yes, I did the maths ;)).
Despite the lack of information in medieval and early Renaissance times, we still have estimations in that time periods. For instance, Sardinia had an estimated population of 350 K in the early 15th century (it may have been struck by the black plague, but probably in lesser terms than the whole continent, due to its size and poor economical weight, when compared to even just Italy itself). As for Corsica, it seems it had, in the (late?) Middle Ages, a total pop of 100 K. Generally speaking, Corsica's population in the whole medieval times can be encomprised between 50K to 100K, these are really safe estimation ranges. Going beyond those numbers would be unwise, even due to the little we currently know.

I'll add a source for the numbers I've pointed out, since I believe I can add a link then. :)

 
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Very nice!
A few notes, Altamura might be hills. Manfredonia should be marshes, beetween Andria and Manfredonia there are very important evaporation basin, in use since Roman times, and nowadays the biggest site in Europe. Maybe Manfredonia or Andria should produce Salt?

I don't know exactly what is meant by cold arid. But in Puglia it feels incorrect. Precipitacion are scarce, but the temperature is quite high in summer, with mild winters. I would say Mediterranean for the coast and Arid for the Foggia, Altamura and maybe Andria areas.
I feel like the Neapolitan culture group is quite big, but I understand the problem in further dividing it. If possible dividing it into Neapolitan, Apulian and Calabrese would be great.

I'm curious if there will be a mechanic for raids. The "Saracen" treat was quite big. Even important cities were destroyed and sterminated/enslaved. For example the Sack of Vieste in 1554 or the siege of Manfredonia in 1620, or earlier less documented cases.
 
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The war you are talking about is the Sardinian-Aragonese War.
This conflict took place from 1353 to 1420, it can be divided into three different stages:
- 1353-54
- 1365-1388
- 1390-1420
Arborea managed to almost expel the Aragonese in 1368 (here is the map of the territories conquered), until the Black Death arrived and messed everything up.


I made a topographic map in the big post I made containing all my suggestions, I know the region quite well and I can tell that Barbagia and Ogliastra are definitely montanous. I remember seeing some landscapes similar to the Alps there. Gennargentu should be 100% impassable land.


Actually Corsican weren't the majority anywhere in Sardinia. There were some big minorities in North Gallura and some smaller minorities in northern coastal areas.
The big immigration started later and shaped the language spoken in these areas by a lot, although in 1337 "Lugudorese" Sardinian was still spoken by the majority.


I made a more detailed analysis of goods produced in my bigger post.

Silver was produced in Iglesias (5 to 10% of the whole European production came from here) and in the regions of Sarrabus and Nurra.

The stone production you are referring to is probably the marble of Orosei.

Sulcis had a big coal production but only in recent times. Carbonia was a city founded in 1937, by the Fascist regime, to colonize the area around the mines with workers (its name comes from carbone, coal in Italian)

Yes, I proposed the name Tratalias since it was the seat of the Diocese and probably the Curadoria capital. In my post I have chosen only city/village names as it is what was done in other areas of the game (with the only exception of Nurra that was almost completely uninhabited, but was still an important regions for its resources)
Yup! I forgot, or maybe never realised this was an actual, little Hundred Years War, on the island! Thanks for the map, it's indeed the one I remember. ;)
Your post is excellent, by the way. I believe that's the one I saw yesterday (or one of the couple most remarkables). And I definitely approve it! Can't hide my love for Sardinia afterall. :p

So, you're right, the eastern/central mountain ranges of Sardinia should be put as mountain terrains/topography, and indeed, the areas around the Gennargentu, set as impassable. I remember, three of four years ago, when I worked on Sardinia (you might have seen the result in my comment to Pavia's initial post), how I was impressed with the toughness of terrain in Ogliastra, and even wanted then to set impassable areas (which I would do then, if I had to recreate the map... which I'll will, given the time and energy!).

Alright, I made a mistake, the important Corsican immigration was made in the 15th century, not in the 14th. My bad! Had to check it out. Although I was sure it started in the 14th, even slowly. But you pointed it out too, there were Corsican minorities in that time.

By the way, if you're the one who posted that long-researched message about Sardinia, shouldn't sardinian name for Cagliari be Casteddu? Or is it too modern? I know little of Sardinian, but I've never seen the names you've shared. Don't mean they don't exist! As you've explained, you know A LOT the island.

I'll link the map I've finalised by march 2020, so you won't have to look for it accross the whole pages. :cool: It's not perfect, quite a mess to read to to the phenomenal amount of informations displayed, but it shows the best I was able to do in that time (I still have to share my final works of Aunis-Saintonge, with detailed views about noticeable locations, topography, vegetation, climate, pops, cultures/subcultures, and trade goods in the medieval/early modern times).

CEO 011 - Sardaigne.png
Mainly based on the judicates and curadorias map.

Curatorie_della_Sardegna.svg.png

If I was to remake the map of Sardinia with my current expertise, I would definitely make numerous locations/tiles depicting smaller areas. For instance, the island of Carloforte, which speaks a Ligurian dialect locally (as well as Italian itself I presume), would earn its territory as its own location/tile in my map projections, since its history is quite unusual (the island was not inhabited before the 1700's, and was populated due to Ligurian immigrants, expelled from another island, near Tunisian coasts).
 
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The borders are not so weird. On this map you can see that most of the Bled area is under Brixen adm Škofja Loka under Fraising. Kočevje is another problem, the province could be divided into two areas, one on Ribnica and the other on Mahovnik, when the people of Ortenburg start settling with Germans, the name Mahovnik would change to Kočevje. In 1247 Berthold, Patriarch of Aquileia, granted the area around Ribnica within the imperial March of Carniola to the Carinthian counts of Ortenburg. When the counts had received further estates in 1336 on the wooded plateau down to Kostel on the Kolpa River from the hands of Patriarch Bertram, they called for German-speaking settlers from Carinthia and Tyrol. In the following decades they established the town of Gottschee, which was first mentioned in a 1363 deed. The settlement received market rights in 1377 and town privileges in 1471. I don't know if they will want to simulate this situation or if they will go into such detail.
View attachment 1145531

If you wanted to divide Carniola more correctly, it would be divided like this.
Bled owned by Brixen
Škofja Loka owned by Fraising
Kranj owned by the Ortenburgs
Ljubljana owned by the Habsburgs
Postojna owned by the Habsburgs
Prem owned by Duino
Ribnica owned by the Ortenburgs
Mahovnik/Kočevje owned by the Ortenburgs
Novo mesto/Krško owned by the Habsburgs
Metlika owned by Counts of Gorizia

But I think this is already too much from a developer's perspective.

View attachment 1145538
And Lower Styria I would devide it into:
Ivnik owned by Duino
Maribor owned by Habsburgs
Slovenj Gradec owned by Habsburgs
Ptuj owned by Salzburg
Celje owned by Counts of Cilli
Brežice owned by Counts of Cilli

1717839584196.png
 
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Yup! I forgot, or maybe never realised this was an actual, little Hundred Years War, on the island! Thanks for the map, it's indeed the one I remember. ;)
Your post is excellent, by the way. I believe that's the one I saw yesterday (or one of the couple most remarkables). And I definitely approve it! Can't hide my love for Sardinia afterall. :p

So, you're right, the eastern/central mountain ranges of Sardinia should be put as mountain terrains/topography, and indeed, the areas around the Gennargentu, set as impassable. I remember, three of four years ago, when I worked on Sardinia (you might have seen the result in my comment to Pavia's initial post), how I was impressed with the toughness of terrain in Ogliastra, and even wanted then to set impassable areas (which I would do then, if I had to recreate the map... which I'll will, given the time and energy!).

Alright, I made a mistake, the important Corsican immigration was made in the 15th century, not in the 14th. My bad! Had to check it out. Although I was sure it started in the 14th, even slowly. But you pointed it out too, there were Corsican minorities in that time.

By the way, if you're the one who posted that long-researched message about Sardinia, shouldn't sardinian name for Cagliari be Casteddu? Or is it too modern? I know little of Sardinian, but I've never seen the names you've shared. Don't mean they don't exist! As you've explained, you know A LOT the island.

I'll link the map I've finalised by march 2020, so you won't have to look for it accross the whole pages. :cool: It's not perfect, quite a mess to read to to the phenomenal amount of informations displayed, but it shows the best I was able to do in that time (I still have to share my final works of Aunis-Saintonge, with detailed views about noticeable locations, topography, vegetation, climate, pops, cultures/subcultures, and trade goods in the medieval/early modern times).

View attachment 1145557
Mainly based on the judicates and curadorias map.

View attachment 1145558
Casteddu is the “modern” name in the dialect speaken in Cagliari today, but in medieval times it was different, under Aragonese control was called Castell de Càller in catalan, and Cagliari is from the spanish version of Callari, and this is from the Latin Caralis (that could be use sa “original name”.There could be also the option to use Castellum Castri de Kallari(from which the catalan and spanish mame camera from). Also Casteddu refer to the castle , built by Pisani around 1250. During the judicial era the center of the city became the village of Santa Igia (destroyed by the Pisans in 1258). I’m from Cagliari, that’s why I know it so well ;)
For proget Cesar purpose If the choice is to use Italian name, then Cagliari is good enough, other way, i will say Caralis/Calari is perfect to rappresent the original Sardinian name (Caralis is from the late Latin form of the name, which is fitting to rapresent medieval name), and if under Aragone rule Castell de Càller would be fine.
 
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Some notes on medieval salt sources in Italy, mostly from S. A. M. Adshead's "Salt and Civilization" book, but some from other research for MEIOU and Taxes. Some of them are parts of provinces with different good, but you may find it interesting if provinces are re-drawn or province good is changed for whatever else reason:
  1. Sicily had three main sources:
    Realmonte and Racalmuto salt mines, this is Agrigento location on your map
    West Coast Salt Pans (one at Nubia, just south of Trapani, and one at Lo Stagnone, the largest lagoon in Italy, a few miles north of Marsala)
    smaller source "in the province of Caltanissetta", but I have no further notes on it

    I guess you've represented west coast salt pans as that quasi-inland Salemi province (this would not match geographically though)? or it may be a different mine, but which one then?
  2. Venice salt production was mostly in Chioggia (successive basin solar evaporation salines), you have fish there and salt is moved to Ferrara's coastal location
  3. Palermo had a salt mining deposit in Petralia Soprana, but it was a marginal operation, smaller from their sea salt production
  4. Istrian salt production was mostly around Capodistria and Piran
  5. Trieste production was rather small and located in Muggia
  6. Sardinia had successive basin evaporation in Cagliari
  7. We see a tiny bit of the coast there, but there were important mines in the neighbrohood of Vlore and Durres (together they served as principal source for the southern Atlantic region)
 
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Some notes on medieval salt sources in Italy, mostly from S. A. M. Adshead's "Salt and Civilization" book, but some from other research for MEIOU and Taxes. Some of them are parts of provinces with different good, but you may find it interesting if provinces are re-drawn or province good is changed for whatever else reason:
  1. Sicily had three main sources:
    Realmonte and Racalmuto salt mines, this is Agrigento location on your map
    West Coast Salt Pans (one at Nubia, just south of Trapani, and one at Lo Stagnone, the largest lagoon in Italy, a few miles north of Marsala)
    smaller source "in the province of Caltanissetta", but I have no further notes on it

    I guess you've represented west coast salt pans as that quasi-inland Salemi province (this would not match geographically though)? or it may be a different mine, but which one then?
  2. Venice salt production was mostly in Chioggia (successive basin solar evaporation salines), you have fish there and salt is moved to Ferrara's coastal location
  3. Palermo had a salt mining deposit in Petralia Soprana, but it was a marginal operation, smaller from their sea salt production
  4. Istrian salt production was mostly around Capodistria and Piran
  5. Trieste production was rather small and located in Muggia
  6. Sardinia had successive basin evaporation in Cagliari
  7. We see a tiny bit of the coast there, but there were important mines in the neighbrohood of Vlore and Durres (together they served as principal source for the southern Atlantic region)
Interesting but incomplete
8. The basin solar evaporation salines in "Saline di Barletta", modern day Margherita di Savoia in Apulia. In the map between Manfredonia and Andria.
 
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May I suggest that the location just above Ragusa produces salt rather than fish? The location name is also Slano, which literally means Salty. Although I would rather suggest Ston as a name for location. It even has a defensive wall built by Ragusa to defend the salt ponds from Venetians. It is one of the longest fortifications in Europe if I am not mistaken. It should be an event for Ragusa to upgade existing forts into a large wall.

"After the Republic of Dubrovnik acquired the Pelješac in 1334, it required the protection of Ston. First, in thirty years, one of the longest defense walls in Europe was erected on one side of the peninsula"

"Between 1461 and 1464, the Florentine architect Michelozzo commissioned the building of the wall by the order of the Dubrovnik Republic. The Great Wall is 1200 m long, and was built to ensure protection from neighbours. The chronicles state that the construction of the wall lasted for 18 months and cost 12,000 ducats."
 
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So, you're right, the eastern/central mountain ranges of Sardinia should be put as mountain terrains/topography, and indeed, the areas around the Gennargentu, set as impassable. I remember, three of four years ago, when I worked on Sardinia (you might have seen the result in my comment to Pavia's initial post), how I was impressed with the toughness of terrain in Ogliastra, and even wanted then to set impassable areas (which I would do then, if I had to recreate the map... which I'll will, given the time and energy!).
I’m not a geologist or anything similar so I don’t really have the competence to draw impassable lands but I think at least Gennargentu should be depicted as that.

Alright, I made a mistake, the important Corsican immigration was made in the 15th century, not in the 14th. My bad! Had to check it out. Although I was sure it started in the 14th, even slowly. But you pointed it out too, there were Corsican minorities in that time.
Yes, the immigration had already started out but they were in a relevant number only in the north of Gallura. It probably has always existed, since there had been Corsican people in the north of Sardinia since Nuragic times (Bronze Age). However keep in mind that the Corsicans that were probably there since ancient times were much different from the medieval and modern Corsicans, which are a mix between ancient Corsicans and Italian settlers (both Tuscan and Ligurian).

By the way, if you're the one who posted that long-researched message about Sardinia, shouldn't sardinian name for Cagliari be Casteddu? Or is it too modern? I know little of Sardinian, but I've never seen the names you've shared. Don't mean they don't exist! As you've explained, you know A LOT the island.
Casteddu is the Sardinian word for “castle”.
The original name for the city was Castel di Castro di Callari (in Italian since it was founded by the Pisans after they destroyed the old city called Santa Igia), where “Castel di Castro” was the name of the castle and “Callari” was the name of the place.
The name in Sardinian was Casteddu de Calari, meaning “castle of Cagliari”.
Then the city itself identified with the castle since it was the new urban center in the area. In fact today Casteddu is also a district in Cagliari (so even today it indicate both the whole city and a part of it).
Calari (today is Cagliari, in Italian) was the name for the whole area (castle + surroundings) and it derives from the old Phoenician city of Krly that then became Karalis i with the Romans and in the Middle Ages was called Calari/Callari.
So “Casteddu” is a more colloquial term, the proper term is Calari.

CEO 011 - Sardaigne.png
Mainly based on the judicates and curadorias map.
I really like it but I’m afraid that there are too many locations even for the scale of the game.

For instance, the island of Carloforte, which speaks a Ligurian dialect locally (as well as Italian itself I presume), would earn its territory as its own location/tile in my map projections, since its history is quite unusual (the island was not inhabited before the 1700's, and was populated due to Ligurian immigrants, expelled from another island, near Tunisian coasts).
Unfortunately Carloforte is way too small to be in the game, even the bigger island of Sant’Antioco (called Sulci at the time) is too small.
 
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