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Tinto Maps #5 - 7th of June 2024 - Italy

Hello everyone, and welcome to the fifth Tinto Maps! This week we will be sharing the map of Italy.

One comment before we start: we know that you might be eager to discuss other regions that may appear partially on the DD, such as the Balkans. Let’s try to keep the conversations separated in different threads, please; every region will get its own Tinto Maps, and we will show them and gather feedback in due time, in their own DD.

With that said, let’s start!:

Countries
Countries.jpg

The situation of Italy in 1337 is quite interesting. The main power in the peninsula is the Kingdom of Naples, ruled by King Robert I, who is also ruler of Provence, and a few minor countries in Northern Italy; his efforts towards the domination of Italy also made him the leader of the Guelph faction in Italy, which backs the Pope. Speaking of him, the seat of the Curia is at Avignon, and regaining control over the Papal States and moving it back to Rome might take some time and effort. Opposite to all of them, there is the Ghibelline faction, led by the Signoria of Milan, ruled by the Visconti dynasty. They are backed by other important powers in the Italian region, such as the Superb Republic of Genoa, or the Duchy of Verona, ruled by the dynasty of della Scala. There are also neutral powers, like the Republics of Venice or Siena, although they could be attracted to join one of the factions. And we also have foreign powers that have already set a foothold in Italy, such as the Crown of Aragon, which has established a branch of its dynasty as Kings of Sicilia, while also recently conquering some lands in Sardinia.

g&gs.png

Guelphs.jpg

Ghibellines.jpg

Guelphs and Ghibellines factions! They are International Organizations part of a Situation.

Dynasties
dynasties.png


Locations
Locations.jpg

There is an interesting density in Italy, especially in the North, where there are plenty of communes - the Italian city-states. You might also notice something a bit different from previous Paradox GSGs: Venice is not an island, but the location has lands around the lagoon. We aren’t 100% sure that this will be the final design, as we have a few ideas to try to keep its special position on an island inside the lagoon while addressing the issue of it being too small to appear in the map; in this regard, we’re open about feedback and ideas on the topic.

Provinces
Provinces.jpg

Any naming suggestions about the provinces are well-received, as usual.

Terrain
Climate.jpg

Topography.jpg

Vegetation.jpg

Three usual terrain layers. Something that I want to comment on is that we’ve been following this thread about ‘Revising Flatlands and hills’, and we are trying to get a bit more granularity in the Topographical map with the help of @SulphurAeron .

Cultures
Cultures.jpg

Italy is also a region with a sharp cultural division, and also plenty of minorities; although they don’t appear on the map, there are Italki Jews, or Greek and Albanian people in the South, among others.

Religions
Religion.jpg

Another boring region, with more than 90% of the population being Catholic, with most of the religious minorities being Italkim Jews and Orthodox Greeks. We're considering implementing Waldensians, although adding more diverging Catholic heresies/confessions is a bit of a low priority for us right now. As a side note, it might catch your eye the Krstjani of Bosnia; we’ll discuss them later on, in the Tinto Maps devoted to the Balkans.

Raw Goods
Raw Goods.jpg

Italy is a rich region with plenty of interesting raw materials.

Markets
Markets.jpg

There are three market centers in Italy: Genoa, Venice, and Naples (which was a very, very rich country in 1337, the wealthiest of the region). As usual, take into account that. 1. We don't script in the setup which locations belong to each market, they're automatically assigned to each market. 2. This starting distribution is not final, and it might change, as we do tweaks to the market access calculations over time.

Population
Pops Countries.jpg

Pops Locations.png

There is around 10.5M population in the Italian region as of now. Taking into account how divided the political landscape is, Naples looks scary…

And that’s all for this week! For the next one, we will be talking about the British Isles, with @SaintDaveUK . See you!
 
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I think I am quitting this "listing the countries I'd like to play" schtick as no one seems to care about it and making it more casual. Arborea is by far the coolest tag here, because Sardinia is cool with its nuraghi and Neolithic Farmer population, and you are the last Sardinian tag pushing against foreign invaders. It will be hard but I would love to do that. Trying to be the third merchant republic as Pisa could be fun. Naples will be the Italy forming tag, and Sicilia is my favorite type of country (an island so navy matters more than army, super likely to be played tall). Milan also seems cool as does Aquileia and Verona, but I ain't touching that Northern Italy mess. Oh, also, the Papacy will be one of the most unique tags in the game in my opinion, with all the tithe. I might do a benevolent Rome-gardening Papacy run and bring it to a great finale by going revolutionary and becoming the Respvblica Romana once again. Anyway, I realized I am not realistically compiling these comments, and some people even disagreed with them (bro what) so I'l do it more casual from now on, but I realized I still like these weekly writeups a lot. Now it's less of a chore, so see you guys in the Britland thread.
 
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Add Slavonian and Griko cultures! I mean there is Bosnian, Jasz, Rusyn and Moravian, why not Slavonian? They had their Kingdom/Dukedom and their own identity that is different from Croatian and Bosnian and different language/dialect, they were talking about their differences even in the 19th century
 
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Naples will be the Italy forming tag, and Sicilia is my favorite type of country (an island so navy matters more than army, super likely to be played tall).
I got to say in my case it will be pretty much control of everything that The Kingdom of the two Siciles controlled but with Malta and maybe some forts in Albania and Tunis. Something like regional power. Not blob endlessly but also not being a backwater that is too weak for its size. I like some sort of middle-power country playthroughts
 
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Really impressive work, I have a couple of suggestions for the terrain around Padua and Vicenza.
Cattura.PNG

As you can see from the picture there is a system of hills that occupies the area south of Vicenza and Padua while in your map all those locations are currently flatland.
Marshes were also present in the areas around the Euganean hills and around Rovigo: these have been progressively cleared and reclaimed starting during the middle ages and continuing up until the fascist period between the world wars, with significant effort by the Republic of Venice during the game period. Unfortunately I am not much of an historian so I am not able to easily find the sources or indicate specifically which areas were cleared when.

The Euganean hills where historically an important source of stone: if I am not mistaken most of the walkways of the city of Venice are made from stone from the Euganean hills.

EDIT: I also think that the name of the dinasty in Padua is more commonly referred to as "da Carrara" instead of "di Carrara" but I have to confess I do not know how it was written in official documents of the time.
 
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About the culture of central Italy rather than Umbrian it would be more correct central Italian (or any name with middle/central).
Regarding marche, the territory is full of hills near the coast and mountains in the inner part, but maybe they are not too steep for your categories. Furthermore, macerata should be split: for as much as I'd love to see my city, Osimo, which was quite big itself, it would make more sense to see jesi which, unfortunately, was a bit stronger in the past
 
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I made this new map with a better representation of the massif of Gennargentu (impassable land in black).
I used this map as a basis.

This would completely block the path from south to north (and viceversa) in the east of the island,
which is totally realistic, especially for the time period.

Topographic map of Sardinia (Gennargentu).png
 
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This a more in-detail map of the area:

View attachment 1145135

Please ignore:
1. The change in the colors of the locations; it's because I'm currently in the branch with the Iberian map review, and colors have changed because of the new additions.
2. The geographical features of the region need to be reviewed, we're aware of it.

I got a few suggestions regarding the parts shown here in the Map adressing the locations in modern day Ticino.




If the current locations are gone stay the same
  • I would suggest to switch the names of Bellinzona and Locarno. As Bellinzona is much closer to the location you named Locarno and vice versa. (The city of Bellinzona would then still be in the location Lugano but Locarno would be right.)


If possible i would suggest to change the locations the following way and create a new location in doing so:

Locarno.jpg

Alternativ location borders and location names added in white.


This would give the correct geographical location, as Bellinzona lies in the middle of the Ticino valley, which leads up to the two passes of Gotthard and Lukmanier, and splits just behind Bellinzona into the valley of Mesocco. For historical reasons, I would split off the upper part of the Ticino valley into a separate region called Leventina.

Furthermore, it would be possible to represent the following things in later stages of the game:
(which I know is kind of a soft argument since history isn't written in stone here xD).
  • Leventina being a vassal under the canton of uri in the old swiss confederacy.
  • Bellinzona being under joint ruling of the cantons of Uri, Schwyz, Nidwalden.
  • And Locarno and Lugano being under joint ruling of all the 12 old cantons.

Adding the Lukmanier Pass would be really great, as it was the most used pass in the Swiss Alps at the start of the game, and was heavily used by the Holy Roman Emperors on their way from Germany to Italy.



One last thing about the location name Belmont. I did not know why you chose this name, so a quick google search later I think you based the location name on a regional noble family that ruled in these parts. I think the place name should be changed to one of the following four things in order of preference:

  1. Surselva the current name of the location (which therefore also got lots and lots of history behind it)
  2. Mustér: the name of the monestary in this valley which started its upswing right around this time thanks to the mentioned visits of the holy roman emperors and the gifts of those. (Mustére would be the romansh (rumantsch) name and Disentis the german name which only came later in history due to recession of romansh)
  3. Anterior Rhine the name of the river in the valley
  4. Ilanz after the only town with city rights in this region


For further reasearch regarding switzerland and its historicall make-up (also mountain passes and economy) I highly suggest the historical dictionary of switzerland where most of the articels are available in FR, IT and DE. Most of the here mentioned stuff is from there.

I hope im able to help you out with the here provided infos so that the depiction of the region of Ticino is more accurate.
 
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My personal and extremely niche gripe with the map is regarding the kingdom of Naples:

It was (formally, due to the Normans) a vassal of the papal states. It didn't act like one but they still had obligations to them (mainly military, and they also paid a tribute called "Chinea" to them. For reference: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinea ). That resulted in the city of Benevento as well as Pontecorvo being enclaves of the papal states INSIDE the kingdom of Naples (information available in both cities' Wikipedia articles: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pontecorvo ; https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benevento )

Other than that I hope the Duchy of Sora will get an event chain to gain autonomy and become a vassal under the kingdom of Naples (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duchy_of_Sora)

Likewise the principality of Taranto should be modelled as a feudal state of Naples, not an integral part of it (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principality_of_Taranto). As for this one a good book I recommend for reference is "I domini del principe di Taranto in età orsiniana (1399-1463)"

Attached is a map of the orsini-dominated area of Apulia, but the de iure principality of Taranto are only the ones in 01. Still, I think it's worth taking into consideration for a deeper historical experience as the struggle against the principality was a notable element in the governance of the Kingdom of Naples
 

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i am gonna share with you an image which is gonna help you a ton with road, resources, map, names and more.
i am not gonna list every change i'd propose given i am confident you can look at the map and choose where to make changes.

as for resources i will list you the city name with the resource, these were quite important ones so i'd suggest adding all of them in some form
vipitano: silver mines
cannobio: leather
scledo: wool
maniago: iron
venzone: silk
carrara: marble (very important)
cagli: silk
fabriano: paper (this one is super important given it was the european center of paper, originally producing arab paper)
gavorrano: iron
rio: iron
deruta: ceramic
lanciano: fabrics
catanzaro: silk
caltagirone: ceramic
iglesias: silver and lead

some cities have two names on in bracket and one outside. the one outside is how it was called back then, the one outside is how they are called today

Map_Historical_evolution_of_settlements_II_1992_-_Insediamenti_del_XIII_secolo_-_Touring_Club_...jpg
 
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about the population of italy in 1300, here are some useful information.

there were 12,5 million people living in italy with 1/3 dying after the plagues (about 8 milllion at the end),
the average death age was 20 to 25 y.o. depending on the region (a lot of people died while giving birth that's why it is so low, we are talking about 50% of all death is between 0 and 4 y.o.)
on average each woman would give birth to 6 childrens, and the average marriage age was at 22,2 to 24,8 y.o. for women and 24,8 to 27,2 y.o for mans.


all datas come from a really well done paper from the Department of History of University of Padua (can't link cause of bot)
 
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Regarding venice i think there may be several solutions:

1. Leave the province as it is (i.e. linked to the terraferma, the mainland) but make a special modifier that requires you to have control of the sea zone (like the venice in eu4) to be able to move into that province. In short it would appear as it is in the eu5 map, but act as in eu4. I saw this in a mod for eu4 long ago.
The problem is that a player may not intuitively understand why he can't move into venice since it appears linked to the terra ferma. The advantage of this approach is that the geographical aspect (i.e. the real map) is respected while also the strategical perks of venice preserved while allowing the province to be of a dimension that allows the player to click on it.
2. Make venice an island, magnify it by a little factor that allows it to be clickable but not to be giant as it is eu4. In short a solution that is in between the eu4 size and eu5 size, after all i saw that there are provinces of that size in other parts of europe so it may not be a big problem if eu5 can zoom more than eu4.
3. Make venice an island without magnifying it at all and call it a day. Again, it may actually be a good solution if the player can zoom in and operate on the island without problems.
4. Make venice an island + a magnifying sector that allows the player to click it easily. Honestly the result of this depends exclusively on the final aspect of it so it may seem terrible at first but maybe it might end up as a cool solution. Iirc i saw this already either in a pdx game or in another mod of a pdx game (prolly this) and it didn't look bad.


To conclude, i personally prefer either the 2nd or 3rd, they would preserve the geography and keep the strategic aspect of venice.
 
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  1. 1. Savona
    Savona was an important rival to Genoa, up to its final annexation in 1528, and also was an important city in the region strategically. It passed between periods of independence, Genoese control, and Milanese control throughout the 1200s to 1528. It should at least be a separate location, but making it a tag is debatable. At the start date of Project Caesar, 1337, it was in a period of Genoese control, gaining independence just two years after in 1339 (though the much less in-depth second source lists this as 1335), so you can handle this in a few ways. It should for sure at least be a location though. This is the most important of the suggestions I have listed here, in my opinion.
    Sources: Cronotassi del Comune di Savona by Vittorio Poggi, and Tavole Storiche dei Comuni Italiani by Emilio Calvi (both in Google Books)

    2. Santa Fiora
    While the Aldobrandeschi County was being conquered by Siena, it was split into the two states of Sovana (which soon moved its capital to Pitigliano) and Santa Fiora in 1274. In my opinion, both Santa Fiora and Pitigliano should be shown. Santa Fiora owned the territory between the towns of Santa Fiora and Scansano.
    Source: Italian wiki page "Contea di Santa Fiora"

    3. Forli
    You have Imola, Faenza, and Cesena, so I'm really confused why Forli is missing too. It was on the same level of relevance as the other three: quite important for the historical vicissitudes of Romagna.
    Source: Tavole Storiche dei Comuni Italiani by Emilio Calvi (in Google Books)

    4. Landi
    The Landi State should be there. While it was minor and not too important for history, it occupies an important purpose: not having Milan and Genoa be connected there, which they weren't. Milan and Genoa had many conflicts, mostly centered around Savona (as mentioned before), but none of them involved anything like a passage in this area.
    Source: Italian wiki page "Stato Landi"

    5. The Po River delta wasn't as pronounced historically.
    Source: bonificaferrara point it slash servizi slash sistema-informativo-territoriale slash 181-evoluzione-del-territorio-e-della-fascia-costiera (point and slash written out for the anti-spam filter)

    6. This is really minor, but you're using the post-1800s Tyrol border, when it used to include Lodrone.
    Source: the other attached map

    7. Mirandola
    I'm not sure why you don't have Mirandola as a state, when it was, given that you have it as a location already.
    Source: Italian wiki page "Ducato della Mirandola"
unfortunately they said in tintomaps 1 that they are gonna use modern day coastlines to avoid complications
 
I would to give you a few suggestions regardind Sardinia, first of all talking about the cities:
  • Carbonia was founded by Mussolini, prior to that in the area of Sulcis the most important city was only Iglesias, if you want to put a city in the area where you put Carbonia it would be a great idea to put Sulci which was a very old diocese prior to Aragonese invasion, or eventually Tratalias which is the city where the diocese was moved after the invasion.
  • Siniscola was not really a very important city at the time, Posada was much more important
  • Same for Dorgali, i think Galtellì would be a better choice
  • Ozieri and Nuoro only became important cities in sardinia after the XIX century, a couple of ideas to replace them would be Bitti / Orotelli / Ollollai / Ottana, they were much more important centers
Other than this, the tarrain map looks a bit scuffed because the middle of sardinia is almost all mountains that during those times had a crucial role for the defense of the Giudicato d'Arborea, i could give more details but I already saw a couple of comments discussing this.