The case for Italian papal holdings as vassal or independent tags in 1337

[Flying Roman]

The Holy See’s hold over it’s Italian holdings at 1337 was incredibly weak. From what I can see from PC’s mechanics, it is my opinion that this is better represented by vassal or independent tags in it’s entirety, including Lazio. In no particular order here are some points that I believe show how weak papal control was:

• Shortly before game start (1327-28), guelph forces, the bulk of which neapolitan, had made two unsuccessful assaults on Rome to try and prevent Ludwig the Bavarian’s coronation in the city. They were only able to enter after the emperor had left and the crucially after the Colonna family which had led the defence had switched sides to guelph. Rome had it’s own independent armed forces.
• From then until Cola di Rienzo takes power for the first time, the city is effectively run by the so-called barons.
• Cola di Rienzo’s revolt/coup was against the Roman barons, not against the pope, who initially welcomes it. Stefano Colonna was busy leading military action against Corneto when this happened, to underline how little control the Pope had if parts of his domain were openly warring against each other.
• Cardinal Albornoz was tasked with leading a mercenary army from Avignon to Rome to secure the papal states in 1353. He subjugated the territories currently represented as owned by the papal states and the independent tags in Umbria in the same way.
• Control over territory held by the Prefetti di Vico ( had to be imposed by force in a conventional war. In game terms this territory would include at least Orvieto, Viterbo, Corneto.
• Spoleto and Assisi were controlled by Perugia before Albornoz’ expedition
• In general, these cities and territories had diplomatic relations, made war and raised troops in the period 1337-1353

Gameplay:

Historicity aside, I believe that these changes would also make for interesting gameplay. Securing the Italian territories and building a power base is the first step for the papacy on the way to breaking free from the French yoke. The Prefetti di Vico were a strong Ghibelline presence right around Rome and would also play into those mechanics. A playable Rome also lets players unleash their inner Cola di Rienzo.


Sources:

I’ve used articles from the Treccani Institute’s encyclopedia, biographical dictionary of italians and historical dictionary, which are available online. It is, however, in Italian.

https://www.treccani.it/enciclopedia/colonna-stefano-il-vecchio_(Dizionario-Biografico)/
https://www.treccani.it/enciclopedia/giovanni-dei-prefetti-di-vico/
https://www.treccani.it/enciclopedia/cola-di-rienzo_(Dizionario-Biografico)/

https://www.treccani.it/enciclopedia/egidio-de-albornoz_(Dizionario-Biografico)

https://www.treccani.it/enciclopedia/constitutiones-sanctae-matris-ecclesiae/

 

[NosgothKingdom]

Did you put a link in the Italy map region DD thread to this post? So that we guarantee they read it.

 

[Briloner]

Could be, but I would opt for event-chain / situation --> the Avignon-stay in general with potentially multiple popes.

Here the counter-case to vassal: Avignon is land-locked - far away in a different market --> low control and the estates are running roughshot - just as the OP described.
(A vassal would be little direct control for the pope, but a more efficient-control within the (vassal-)state.)

 

[Flying Roman]

Here the counter-case to vassal: Avignon is land-locked - far away in a different market --> low control and the estates are running roughshot - just as the OP described.
(A vassal would be little direct control for the pope, but a more efficient-control within the (vassal-)state.)

I agree that low control/powerful estates represents most of the situation well, including the roman barons taking the tax incomes.

I think what pushes it over into tag territory is the free hand the various local rulers had in terms of raising troops and fighting each other. Some incidents are represented fine as estate revolts, like Stefano Colonna gathering noble forces in Palestrina for an attack on Cola di Rienzo-controlled Rome. That does feel to me more like a Roman estate revolt against Rome. However, stuff like the Prefetti di Vico expansion at the expense of other territories, to form a bigger ghibelline entity, feels more like tag-behaviour. Same with the small wars between Rome and the Prefetti.

Also, some of the other areas that had to be subjugated by Cardinal Albornoz and his army are already tags, like in Umbria and the Marche.

I’m admittedly not familiar with the other areas, but looking at the France and Britain map talks, it seems to me that the italian territories had similar (if not more) freedom of action and autonomy to the smaller french and english vassal tags at game start.

A side note, more relevant for after the papacy has a more solid control over Rome. Given how frenchified the Avignon papacy was, I think a case could be made for it to start with a french-group primary culture. A recurring issue of the period seems to be (allegedly) odious french legates angering the italian population in various places. Cultural differences (reported by local contemporary sources such as L’Anonimo Romano) seem to have played a part. For example when the french papal legate was ejected from Bologna by a revolt shortly before 1337 the Bolognese are reported to have also attacked anyone from Languedoc they could find. The nationality of the pope was also part of what precipitated the schism, with the conclave that elected Urban VI happening under threat of the roman mob demanding a roman, or at least italian, pope.

 

[William the Merry]

I agree that low control/powerful estates represents most of the situation well, including the roman barons taking the tax incomes.

I think what pushes it over into tag territory is the free hand the various local rulers had in terms of raising troops and fighting each other. Some incidents are represented fine as estate revolts, like Stefano Colonna gathering noble forces in Palestrina for an attack on Cola di Rienzo-controlled Rome. That does feel to me more like a Roman estate revolt against Rome. However, stuff like the Prefetti di Vico expansion at the expense of other territories, to form a bigger ghibelline entity, feels more like tag-behaviour. Same with the small wars between Rome and the Prefetti.

Also, some of the other areas that had to be subjugated by Cardinal Albornoz and his army are already tags, like in Umbria and the Marche.

I’m admittedly not familiar with the other areas, but looking at the France and Britain map talks, it seems to me that the italian territories had similar (if not more) freedom of action and autonomy to the smaller french and english vassal tags at game start.

A side note, more relevant for after the papacy has a more solid control over Rome. Given how frenchified the Avignon papacy was, I think a case could be made for it to start with a french-group primary culture. A recurring issue of the period seems to be (allegedly) odious french legates angering the italian population in various places. Cultural differences (reported by local contemporary sources such as L’Anonimo Romano) seem to have played a part. For example when the french papal legate was ejected from Bologna by a revolt shortly before 1337 the Bolognese are reported to have also attacked anyone from Languedoc they could find. The nationality of the pope was also part of what precipitated the schism, with the conclave that elected Urban VI happening under threat of the roman mob demanding a roman, or at least italian, pope.

Im really hoping that a pope's region of origin affects his culture when elected, wonder of we'll see where our cardinals are as we did in eu4