Tinto Talks #18 - 26th of June 2024

[Pavía]

Hello devs, Pier here, I am a PhD Candidate in Law with a focus on comparative law. I think that the concept of Civil law is a little too simplicistic and it may represent well the evolution of this systems. Before the 19th century it may be considered even premature. I would recommend a few changes and I am happy to write something more extensive and with the appropriate academic references.

-most Catholic countries deployed the so called Utrumque jus, "the one and the other laws", namely Canon Law and Civil (Roman) Law. The latter based mostly on the Justinian code. Canon Law was not limited to religious matters, but had the monopoly over many concrete aspects of life (from family relations to education, but also the limits to the sovereign's powers). At the same time, local customs were also legal sources to complement these two laws. In game, this legal system should reduce the power of the monarch and centralisation. The first major shift is the Reformation, with princes taking control also of the rulemaking of what was before under Canon Law. After all, national churches were under their control (is there a law in game for religious organisation and governance?). The Enlightenment brought the idea of codifying the law and therefore monopolising its production. On the one hand, the spirit of the encyclopedia and the desire to make laws understandable and predictable to cast aside the intricacies of multilayered legal sources (national/local/religious; written/customary). On the other, the centralising impetus in favour of the Legislator (be them an absolutist monarch or a Parliament embodying the nation). I think that only with the early codes (the Code Napoléon is the most prestigious of them) we have the civil law as we understand it today. In game, this should result in more crown authority and centralisation.

Hello Pier! Happy to discuss a bit about medieval comparative law (I had to do some readings about it for one of the chapters of my dissertation).

As you say, Utrumque jus constitutes the legal basis for most of our period, until the 'Napoleonic Legal Revolution'. But something that is usually not so well known is that there was a first codifying movement, in this case of the Civil (Roman) Law of the 'Reception', in the 12th and 13th centuries. Examples of this are the Liber Augustalis, the Siete Partidas, the Magnus Lagabøtes landslov, etc. These codes were all based upon the principle of rex est imperator in regno suo, and established the primacy of the rulers to set the civil law of their countries, and a precedence of the different legal systems cohabiting in them (royal law, consuetudinary law, feudal law, etc.). It's upon those that we've based the Civil Law policy in our game:

"Civil Law, a legal system with roots in ancient Rome, is known for its precise written codification of laws and regulations. However, the rigidity of its structure can hinder the adaptation required to address the evolving needs of the people. Nonetheless, Civil Law can bring peace and stability to even the most turbulent of lands."

 

[Pavía]

Wow, I just paid attention, that the rulers have epithets by their name. I suppose they are dynamically generated? How big is the base for the nicknames?

Big. We're trying to have as many as possible added for the historical starting characters, and then to have a common dynamic database of nicknames.

 

[Lavilledieu]

I hope there's room for laws that are similar to the leading party system of victoria 2. I always found that aspect of victoria 2 interesting for internal management, where you have to pay attention which party is ruling to keep a specific set of bonuses/"laws" in place. Or to pass certain laws.

 

[Vispian]

Will there be unique content, be it an event or law around concepts such as England's Justices of the Peace?

 

[pescinese97]

Big. We're trying to have as many as possible added for the historical starting characters, and then to have a common dynamic database of nicknames.

I sooo hope we can run a rival so much into the ground that he ends up being called "the poor landless bastard"

 

[chriserit1]

'Inquisition Law', which is unlocked by [REDACTED], currently has two default policies for all the Catholic countries, 'Papal Control' and ''Local Courts'. There were a few institutional advances in some parts of the Catholic world that led to 'State Inquisitors'; one of the triggers of it is not being the Pope (obviously),

i don't know what you are planning for the pope but it would make sense for the "Suprema Congregatio Sanctae Romanae et Universalis Inquisitionis", aka roman/papal inquisition, to be the "Inquisition Law" for the pope.

 

[Haestin]

How will the laws tie in with Personal unions? Having vastly different legal traditions or sucession laws would naturally be weakening for a union, so there would be some pressure to bring them closer by the more dominant power.

More generally on Unions, I do hope that they become more granular and dynamic. Where the royal family and other noble families becomes influenced to move their centres of operations more dynamically. Like the prince's of Lobkowicz who moved a lot of their operations to Vienna and was useful in integrating Bohemia into Austria, such as harbouring the defenestrated Austrian dignitaries from the Bohemian protestants.

Here in Swedens history we can see how Denmark started to dominate the union that started with a Swedish Queen as the Court moved to Copenhagen and the Kings became more Danish. Or how France centralised as powerful nobles moved their powerbase closer to the King.

That should not only be laws though. Your capital and the Royal Palaces should make nobles and other estates from your realm and realms in the same union increase centralisation.

 

[PalmanusBraht]

Can the parliament have a different name for monarchies at least. Same functions just call it something else please.

 

[SaintDaveUK]

Can the parliament have a different name for monarchies at least. Same functions just call it something else please.

Why? The name 'Parliament' originated in monarchies of this era.

 

[alexkowal123]

Why? The name 'Parliament' originated in monarchies of this era.

It could be localised to council or assembly depending on the translation?

 

[eanske]

Damnn you guys trying to make game with 600 years range . 1337-1936 . Im sure news paper are not even for napoleonic era . this game will contain ck3/eu4/vic3/hoi4 combined

Here, a Dutch newspaper from 1655, to which you can still subscribe if you want to:

Spoiler

Or if you want a daily paper instead of a weekly:

Spoiler

Funnily on the first line it appears to be referring to the Dutch paper I linked above.

 

[MasterPaw]

Will tooltips say if they enable estate buildings to be build?
Or are those hidden side effect?

 

[NilsFabian]

WOW...
Love it. It really looks like as if all the mechanics of all PDX Games have come together to have a party and we are invited

 

[Pierfrancesco]

Hello Pier! Happy to discuss a bit about medieval comparative law (I had to do some readings about it for one of the chapters of my dissertation).



As you say, Utrumque jus constitutes the legal basis for most of our period, until the 'Napoleonic Legal Revolution'. But something that is usually not so well known is that there was a first codifying movement, in this case of the Civil (Roman) Law of the 'Reception', in the 12th and 13th centuries. Examples of this are the Liber Augustalis, the Siete Partidas, the Magnus Lagabøtes landslov, etc. These codes were all based upon the principle of rex est imperator in regno suo, and established the primacy of the rulers to set the civil law of their countries, and a precedence of the different legal systems cohabiting in them (royal law, consuetudinary law, feudal law, etc.). It's upon those that we've based the Civil Law policy in our game:

It's true that you are a colleague I knew about the Liber Augustalis, but still I would distinguish between the early "civil law" (maybe it could be labelled in game as jus commune) and the post Napoleonic civil law. In the medieval conception (correct me if I am wrong) the king is mainly seen as a rex iudex more than as a legislator, the final appeal. Their powers are exercised mostly through adjudication than codification. For the same reason we all remember specifically those few kings that codified law: it was an exceptional action. My point is that the concept of 'codex' and 'codification' is quite different across from the ages. Finally, the essential traits of modern civil law are 1) written law prevails over customs; 2) a new written law automatically overrules an incompatible old law. I would say that most European polities in 1337, due to how far the king was and the lack of jurists, used to apply local customs before statues. Also, it was still up to debate if a law of the king incompatible with "higher" norms (i.e. against religious norms, canon law or a long establishment provision of Justinian; but it will take time before defining a hierarchy of legal sources ) was to be respected. I think that Gregorius VII even authorised subjects to rebel against tyrants who violated canon law (that is, who didn't obey him). Btw, I study economic law and it has been sometimes since I delved more on systemic and historical aspects, perhaps I will see where your vision will lead you and then come back with more grounded suggestions). Also, my professor of legal history was a true papist, his course was all on Dante's De monarchia, so I may underestimate the power of the king before Bodin Thanks for engaging in some scholarly debate.

 

[FleetingRain]

'Unique' means 'non-generic', sometimes country-tied (e.g. Papal succession), and sometimes culture or region-tied (e.g. Turkish succession). The first uses a more restrictive trigger, while the second is more open.

Are there localisation swaps for laws, like Stellaris likes to do? Example, in France it's called Salic Law but in Sweden it's called Børk Law with everything else being the same?

 

[Darsara]

Minor thing at this point, I feel like the text for Wooden Wall should be changed from 'outside your own coasts' to 'off/along' your own coast, since 'outside' sound like you should be a bonus abroad, AWAY from your own coasts.

 

[Arizal]

Why? The name 'Parliament' originated in monarchies of this era.

In France, Parliements had the same same role as courts. Instead, the General Estates were the main legislative body. It's at least like that from what I can remember from a book on the Nantes Edict I read a while ago.

This is a good question. Usually, our thought process is to identify first what could be considered unique flavor content; then, we think about the triggers for it to be applied and thus decide if it's something country-related, culture-related, religion-related, etc. If, let's say, the institutional combination that would lead to it triggering is deemed too complex, or simplified through other means, then it may be simplified in a certain way.

Let's put an example of something that I've already mentioned a few times in this thread (IDK why so much, but whatever). 'Inquisition Law', which is unlocked by [REDACTED], currently has two default policies for all the Catholic countries, 'Papal Control' and ''Local Courts'. There were a few institutional advances in some parts of the Catholic world that led to 'State Inquisitors'; one of the triggers of it is not being the Pope (obviously), and the other is culture-tied (as a way of simplifying those institutional advances), making it available, among others, to Iberian countries. But then other institutional advances made the Inquisition a key institution in early modern Spain, for several reasons; we've simplified those into being the country 'Spain', which is a formable one with its own set of triggers to be formed, which therefore has another policy, 'Spanish Inquisition', available to pick.

Obviously, the different sets of triggers, and what deserves to be content for country, culture, religion, etc. may be a matter of discussion, but I hope that I've clarified the way we work with unique content.

Except being "Spanish", what did the Spanish inquisition have that other inquisitions couldn't have? What was it's spanish essence? Was Spain less tolerant because of its past with the Reconquista? (I'm gonna assume that's the case) Does that bar any other country from having a similarly harsh order?

That's what I meant when I asked if "unique" laws made sense. Granted, with my way of seeing things, almost all the "cultural" laws would become general choices, maybe behind harsh requirements, but I would find the game more believable then.

Maybe, instead of linking "Spanish inquisition" to being iberian, you could link it to having a low tolerance for other faiths.

 

[Polesie Admiral]

Why? The name 'Parliament' originated in monarchies of this era.

suggetsion: what about that each parliament would have its name different in different countries(like you do with locations) like Poland's parliament name will be Sejm, Castile's will be Cortes Sweden's will be Riksdag etc?

 

[Arizal]

suggetsion: what about that each parliament would have its name different in different countries(like you do with locations) like Poland's parliament name will be Sejm, Castile's will be Cortes Sweden's will be Riksdag etc?

That would actually be good flavor.

 

[KarkinostheAssClapper]

This looks like a copy pasta....

If you used the time it took you to write this badly structured wall of text to google "Is it easier to do 2D or 3D models?" you would have seen, that for most/many art asset production in game development, it is FAR more efficient, quick and less ressource itensive to do 3D models. rather than 2D drawing/models.


Look at Hades for example, the roguelike. All the assets are made in 3D, and are then converted to 2D sprites. If you want more details google it. This extremely wrong copypasta dump of your anger that could have taken 2 minutes to check is hilarious.

Don't get me wrong, gorgeous, hand drawn 2D art, and pixel art is beautiful, but extremely more ressource intensive, hard to iterate on, not easily adaptable, can't be reused etc. The modulable, "changing clothes/background" aspect you mention, is extremely easy to do with a 3D pipeline, and much harder to do in a 2D pipeline.

Fair enough, less anger and more confusion at what I perceived as misplaced priorities though. However, I'm 100% right about the succession support mechanic in my original comment.