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Tinto Talks #21 - 17th of July 2024

Hello Everyone and Welcome to another Tinto Talks! This is one of those Happy Wednesdays when we talk about the top secret game with the codename of Project Caesar, so that we can listen to your feedback.

This week we are going to take a look at how exploration will work in Project Caesar. In previous GSG games we’ve done, exploration has primarily been done by units, giving them manual orders to move, or sometimes automated orders, to explore places on the map to reveal. We have a new system that works separately to go away from this and separate the military from exploration.

Exploration in this game works entirely on Areas, and for those of you who don’t remember one of our earliest Tinto Talks, an Area contains a group of Provinces, and a Province contains a group of locations, so it should be about 25-75 locations in an area.

Explorations exist in the “geopolitics tab” together with colonization, maritime and privateering.

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You need a proper helmet to be a good explorer!

To get an area explored you need to start an exploration for it. You can only explore areas that are adjacent to an area you have already explored, and if it is an inland area, you can only explore if it is adjacent to an area you own.

Starting an exploration mission for an area costs a significant amount of gold, but there is also an additional cost to start a mission depending on whether it's a land area or a sea area. For a land area, you need manpower, and for sea areas you need sailors.

You also have a constant upkeep cost of gold for your exploration mission, and during your explorations, you may get events related to the exploration.

Missions always have a risk of failure, resetting all progress, and the characters involved can die.

The administrative ability of the leader of the expedition reduces its upkeep cost, while diplomatic ability impacts the success chance, and military ability impacts how quickly the exploration can be done.

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Incompetent at a lot in life, Matias redeeming quality was that he failed fast...

While most characters in the game can be assigned to explore an area, there are some characters that are far superior. These are ‘explorers’, which besides just being innately better at exploring, they also have different unique traits making them better or worse at certain aspects of exploring. While there are some explorers that join certain countries through historical events, there is also the possibility to recruit a new explorer. This requires the “Commision Explorers” advance in the Age of Discovery, that is early in the advances tree for the “New World” Institution.


Speaking of advances, there are a few advances throughout the game that speed up explorations, or make them less prone to failures. At the start of the game, at near range, an Exploration led by someone who is not an Explorer may take a few years to complete, but as you get more advanced, this will become shorter in time.

The trade winds on the sea lanes also have a significant impact on how quickly an area can be explored. We have designed the oceanic locations of Project Caesar to take into account the historical ‘sea lanes’ that were used by ships and fleets during the Age of Sail, taking advantage of their knowledge of winds and sea currents. These sea lanes shaped the way explorations were done, as their mastery was critical to the success (or failure) of an expedition.

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A purple advance is a unique one, and this is one that is unique to anyone in the Western Europe sub-continent in the Age of Renaissance.

If you have built a spy network in another country, you can use it to steal some of their maps.

As an exploration mission is finished, the knowledge of its discoveries will start spreading to other countries that have the capital on the same sub-continent as the explorer. Currently, the map spread takes about 150 years.

Stay tuned, as next week we will go deep into how the combat for armies will work.
 
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How would you define the "essence" of mana, in order to come to such a conclusion?

There doesn't seem to be a truly universally accepted definition of mana, but as far as I understand, some criteria are:
- abstract ressource without a tangible real-world equivalent
- used in "gamey" ways
- generation does not depend much on ingame circumstances

None of these criteria apply to manpower and sailors. They have a tangible real-life equivalent, needing either soldiers or sailors for exploration missions does make some inherent sense and both pools are directly connected to your pops and probably also to buildings and other factors in Project Caesar.

The mere fact that they are spent for an exploration mission doesn't make them mana. You can disagree with it of course, but from a gameplay point of view it makes sense to me that exploration is not free, but requires an investment.

I really think mana should not be used as a negative buzzword when you don't like design decisions.
and if you come to the conclusion that manpower and sailors are mana because they get expended in this process.

Then isnt armies and navies just mana fighting other mana? So isnt that gamey and should just be removed as well

the whole point is dumb because Draky misunderstands what Mana inherently is and when Mana becomes gamey
 
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How could you forget Hjälmaren?

hmm.. well..

Its the same category as Siljan. Vitally important but not great in size
 
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Is it possible to accurately portray historical exploration missions and routes, or are you forced to explore only one area at a time? (for example, explore the entirety of the Atlantic Sea Lanes, then explore the Caribbean Sea)
 
Looks amazing! Can't wait to see how this ties into colonisation, logistics and army.
Just some UI feedback, I know it's in early stages, but I find these incredibly difficult to read/see:
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Some of it is image compression, but I think for such low contrast icons some are a bit too complex? Like the far right telescope-looking one.

Thanks
 
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Since manpower and sailors are coming from pops now, will you portray losses (attrition, inherent risks, whatever else), or is it just subtracted from the pool when you start a mission? I understand that most of the cost (both monetary and human) probably represents the preparation of an expedition, but people actually died on these regardless if they were ultimately successful or not, and it would be cool and immersive if the game included that.
 
I do hope we'll at least be able to "cue" areas or targets for a sea explorer, so we can pull a Magellan and have them sail around Cape Horn and to the East Indies without having to manually start an exploration for each area. Plus, though I admit this has little practical impact, I really like the feeling of sending my explorer on an epic voyage of discovery around half the world. It's game set in the Age of Discovery, it should be able to capture that feeling!
 
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I do hope we'll at least be able to "cue" areas or targets for a sea explorer, so we can pull a Magellan and have them sail around Cape Horn and to the East Indies without having to manually start an exploration for each area. Plus, though I admit this has little practical impact, I really like the feeling of sending my explorer on an epic voyage of discovery around half the world. It's game set in the Age of Discovery, it should be able to capture that feeling!
They could just code a separate mission for that like in EU4.
 
So discovery spread is only to the same subcontinent? a subcontinent would be what exacly? would Poland get portugal's discoveries?

I assume once Western Europe gets Portugal's maps after 150 years, some Western European countries will probably own provinces in Central Europe, thus beginning a new 150-year cycle of spread. Think Brandenburg (Western Europe, I assume) spreading its maps eastwards because it owns lands in Pommern, Prussia, Silesia etc.

Also, by then the Ottos will probably have stolen Portuguese maps anyways, and spread them in their subcontinent.

And I guess once Portugal gets lands in India, Indian tags will start counting down to getting maps of Europe.
 
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Is Unit exploration completely removed?
What will happen if we are at war with a nation which we have border but we cant see their capital due to terra ignorica
 
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Do you choose a starting location for expedition from which manpower/sailors are recruited and expedition time is based on?
 
Will sliders affect exploration on land vs naval etc? I wouldnt expect full naval nation and full land nation to have same success, speed on exploring overseas tbh
 
Will the Treaty of Tordesillas exist in PC, and will it be accurately represented? In EU4, the Treaty of Tordesillas only just forced colonizers to only Catholic colonize in regions where another Catholic country's colonial nation didn't exist, rather than dividing the world between Spain and Portugal's colonial claims; you would still get situations like Portugal colonizing Mexico and California for example. If it exists, will there also be an event chain or even a situation where colonial claims could be drawn differently based on the the player's actions?
 
This new system is better than old systems but it still misses out on the interesting political dynamics of exploration and colonization. In at least the first few centuries of exploration, missions were far too expensive for the crown to finance independently so (in game terms) they relied on co-financing agreements with their estates. The estate would help to finance part (or even all) the mission in exchange for concessions from the crown. Usually trade monopolies, tax exemptions, land grants, missionary support, etc.

These agreements were essential for jump-starting exploration and later colonization but quickly led to complex power dynamics where the estates had considerably more control in colonized lands and trade ports than the crown. I'd love to see this represented in the game.

Damned good point. Hopefully, this is represented in the colonization system. There should be different types of colonies with different funding mechanisms. One of the options should be funding from a group inside your country that grants that group significant control in the colony. Basically, the group "owns" the colony the way that a Duke might be the ruler of a province. It has been ages since I researched this, so I'm not entirely sure, but I want to say that Spain and Portugal used this model more often than not. The crown didn't establish that many colonies. Instead, regions were sold or granted as favors, then the "owner" paid to build the colony. Typically, the individuals building colonies were wealthy nobles or groups of nobles.

Edit: P.S. - I can't find who said it, but somebody earlier in the thread said they are not a fan of random goods in the New World. Same! No random goods. One of my least favorite features. At worst, make it a game option.
 
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understandable. could this be modded though? as in, I could create an alternative button with these goals i mentioned (Reach India around Africa) and set specific sea areas that would all need to be explored at once (from Europe to India around Africa) and only afterwards we know if the mission was successful, just like it works on the system you guys developed, but with multiple areas at once.

Another thing I noticed that you mentioned was that only certain ships can enter open sea tiles. This suggests that each sea tile can be defined to accept only whatever ship we want. Is this moddable?

Ships are abstracted away.

A modder could make their own actions, that discovers a full route after X time etc.. all of that is 100% doable with the script and scripted gui.
 
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