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Tinto Talks #21 - 17th of July 2024

Hello Everyone and Welcome to another Tinto Talks! This is one of those Happy Wednesdays when we talk about the top secret game with the codename of Project Caesar, so that we can listen to your feedback.

This week we are going to take a look at how exploration will work in Project Caesar. In previous GSG games we’ve done, exploration has primarily been done by units, giving them manual orders to move, or sometimes automated orders, to explore places on the map to reveal. We have a new system that works separately to go away from this and separate the military from exploration.

Exploration in this game works entirely on Areas, and for those of you who don’t remember one of our earliest Tinto Talks, an Area contains a group of Provinces, and a Province contains a group of locations, so it should be about 25-75 locations in an area.

Explorations exist in the “geopolitics tab” together with colonization, maritime and privateering.

exploration_ui.png

You need a proper helmet to be a good explorer!

To get an area explored you need to start an exploration for it. You can only explore areas that are adjacent to an area you have already explored, and if it is an inland area, you can only explore if it is adjacent to an area you own.

Starting an exploration mission for an area costs a significant amount of gold, but there is also an additional cost to start a mission depending on whether it's a land area or a sea area. For a land area, you need manpower, and for sea areas you need sailors.

You also have a constant upkeep cost of gold for your exploration mission, and during your explorations, you may get events related to the exploration.

Missions always have a risk of failure, resetting all progress, and the characters involved can die.

The administrative ability of the leader of the expedition reduces its upkeep cost, while diplomatic ability impacts the success chance, and military ability impacts how quickly the exploration can be done.

attributes.png

Incompetent at a lot in life, Matias redeeming quality was that he failed fast...

While most characters in the game can be assigned to explore an area, there are some characters that are far superior. These are ‘explorers’, which besides just being innately better at exploring, they also have different unique traits making them better or worse at certain aspects of exploring. While there are some explorers that join certain countries through historical events, there is also the possibility to recruit a new explorer. This requires the “Commision Explorers” advance in the Age of Discovery, that is early in the advances tree for the “New World” Institution.


Speaking of advances, there are a few advances throughout the game that speed up explorations, or make them less prone to failures. At the start of the game, at near range, an Exploration led by someone who is not an Explorer may take a few years to complete, but as you get more advanced, this will become shorter in time.

The trade winds on the sea lanes also have a significant impact on how quickly an area can be explored. We have designed the oceanic locations of Project Caesar to take into account the historical ‘sea lanes’ that were used by ships and fleets during the Age of Sail, taking advantage of their knowledge of winds and sea currents. These sea lanes shaped the way explorations were done, as their mastery was critical to the success (or failure) of an expedition.

route_to_the_indies.png
A purple advance is a unique one, and this is one that is unique to anyone in the Western Europe sub-continent in the Age of Renaissance.

If you have built a spy network in another country, you can use it to steal some of their maps.

As an exploration mission is finished, the knowledge of its discoveries will start spreading to other countries that have the capital on the same sub-continent as the explorer. Currently, the map spread takes about 150 years.

Stay tuned, as next week we will go deep into how the combat for armies will work.
 
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Imma be honest if those are the kinda tech that are gonna be in the game im a little disappointed they look super boring, for sure better than eu4s completely flavorless tech "tree" but i was expecting less flat modifiers and more unlocks.
 
why not? all their exploration achievements were done prior to the start date. there's even debates as to why they stopped exploring, such as: https://challengedamerica.org/why-did-the-polynesians-stop-sailing-for-1000-years/#:~:text=In conclusion, it appears that,years at some point between

many people here seem to want polynesians to be able to explore early game. using your logic, you also support scandinavian countries exploring early game. I am in favor of neither. Portugal and Castile were the first and best exploration powers of this age. Remember, this game starts in 1337. Polynesians and Vikings were around 1000AD
in 1337 the colony on Greenland was still well and still kept in contact with their Scandinavian "home country" what finally drove the colony to ruin was the Portuguese ivory trade from Africa, so why shouldn't there be a small possibility that Scandinavians take the lead in exploration in some games.
 
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many people here seem to want polynesians to be able to explore early game. using your logic, you also support scandinavian countries exploring early game.
Yes, I support this idea.
I think that players playing these cultures (scandinavians or polynesians) should be able to follow a sea exploration route early game instead of be locked out of it, fun alt-history in my opinion.

Besides, I dont know if this range date for the end of polynesians explorations in your source (500-1000 CE) is correct, some isles have an estimation range of first settlers as late as 1200 CE, New Zealand is a special case with some people considering a 1200-1300 CE range.
 
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in 1337 the colony on Greenland was still well and still kept in contact with their Scandinavian "home country" what finally drove the colony to ruin was the Portuguese ivory trade from Africa, so why shouldn't there be a small possibility that Scandinavians take the lead in exploration in some games.

Yes, I support this idea.
I think that players playing these cultures (scandinavians or polynesians) should be able to follow a sea exploration route early game instead of be locked out of it, fun alt-history in my opinion.
Yeah sure I've no problem with that. For me the definition of early game is until around 1400ish, i'd say. And I would definitely NOT like to have a colonized america by then, especially since realistically speaking no european should be able to reach america before 1470ish. So again, I'm okay with scandinavians exploring, but not in the 14th century. I'd aim for mid 15th century to keep things realistic. As for polynesians, I'm okay with them exploring as long as they don't reach bigger landmasses. Keeping to their tradition of staying in pacific islands, making things balanced.
Besides, I dont know if this range date for the end of polynesians explorations in your source (500-1000 CE) is correct, some isles have an estimation range of first settlers as late as 1200 CE, New Zealand is a special case with some people considering a 1200-1300 CE range.
Don't take my word for it, I'm no expert. All I know is, whether it's 1000 or 1300, it's still before the start date, thus giving them exploration is already alt-history.
 
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Don't take my word for it, I'm no expert. All I know is, whether it's 1000 or 1300, it's still before the start date, thus giving them exploration is already alalt-history.
My take: they should have access to exploration, but they have already ran out of unexplored land in their surrounding as they have settled virtually every island in the Pacific and probably even reached South America before the game's timeframe. ALSO, given that most Polynesian/Micronesian/Melanesian/Austronesian/etc. islands and region will likely not have many large, unified countries that could support a large-scale or any-scale exploration with an Explorer and a Crew etc. Maybe there will be some countries in that region, but I doubt any will be that big or strong
 
many people here seem to want polynesians to be able to explore early game. using your logic, you also support scandinavian countries exploring early game. I am in favor of neither. Portugal and Castile were the first and best exploration powers of this age. Remember, this game starts in 1337. Polynesians and Vikings were around 1000AD
From the New Zealand wiki :

"
Between about 1280 and 1350, Polynesians began to settle in the islands
"

So, by 1337 there was definitely still some exploration going on in the inland (and maybe even the coast). It's not because there were no more islands to discover that they forgot how to sail.

Also, in this game it should take 150 years for the knowledge of an area to spread through a subcontinent. Whatever those terms mean in Oceania, that implies this spread isn't complete yet, even assuming the real date is decades before the earliest wiki estimate

Edit: and yes, the same goes for the Swedish exploration of Finland or the Japanese one of northern Honshu (with Hokkaido to follow)
 
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It's not because there were no more islands to discover that they forgot how to sail.
yet they didnt really leave the pacific ocean nor settle in America. there was a reason why they didnt. hence why we should have some brakes for polynesian exploration
 
Distance ?

Also, they DID settle Madagascar and had, according to some interpretations (it's been long since I looked into this), at least one colonie in Chile
 
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So if I'm playing as the Ottomans and the new world was discovered 100 years ago I wouldn't know about it? Even if I'm fighting Spain and their new world colonies? Despite the fact that some Ottoman advisors wished to set up colonies in the new world under the reign of Suleiman the Magnificent, despite never having explored it themselves.
I think that you should be able to just send spies to steal maps rather than send someone there
 
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How will exploration of new world account for Norway, since they still have some population on Greenland and will know partially of land in the Canada area.
I think they won't have any revealed land in Canada as Vinland voyages were like 300 years prior. So they probaby forgot. Although some speculate that they could have had continued expeditions to Labrador coast for lumber. Not sure is that true but not completely unimaginable. Still I think by 1337 they would only know of some stories of Vinland and nothing revealed on map
 
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yet they didnt really leave the pacific ocean nor settle in America. there was a reason why they didnt. hence why we should have some brakes for polynesian exploration
They didn't settle America because there were already people living there lol. They still did bring sweet potatoes back tho
 
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yet they didnt really leave the pacific ocean nor settle in America. there was a reason why they didnt. hence why we should have some brakes for polynesian exploration
And as I said, it is unlikely that Polynesians will have playable countries in 1337, and even if they will it will be very unlikely that they will be large enough to support and finance a proper expedition. Therefore it doesn't really matter if they get access to it if they just can't do it tbf
 
I'm not too much of a fan of map spreading just being "over time to everyone in the subcontinent". What I plan on modding this to (let's be honest at this point I'm committing to making a whole mod project, not just a handful of smaller mods) is a system similar to how I want advancement to spread: a three-form spread.

What do I mean by that? Every country has three "adjacencies" to other countries in the world. They have their literal neighbors, those who they share a market with, and the market of where they trade. Maps should spread to all three (cumulatively). My thoughts on the actual implementation is that it'd be a monthly pulse effect. One for every country, and one for every market. Assuming that the "map spread" is handled through an accumulating variable that, once it hits a particular value (or I guess subtracts down to zero; same thing), gives the particular map, the first "neighbor adjacency" bonus would be for every country, to add some number of points to their map spread for each map variable based on whether their neighbors have said map, with some weights applied (likely weighing based on population so that you don't get faster map spread by being neighbors to a ton of small countries) such as shared language. The effect for each market does two things: one, it does a weighted sum for every country in the market's known maps (weighted by the amount of their population in the market itself, plus whether or not their language is the market language), then applied to every country in the market weighted again by how much of their population is in that market and whether or not they share the market language. This variable, before being distributed, is also stored in each market at which point an additional "between market" spread is calculated based on trade volume between markets; every import from market A to market B also comes with some portion of their "map spread" that they have in the market. That value is stored separately and added to the intramarket spread before being spread to every country in the market.

That way you don't have weird, arbitrary borders for who gets a map and who doesn't. Instead it's based on your neighbors and your market, and will spread outward organically based on patterns of trade.

Plus I can feed that system directly into my "advancement spread" system, and consolidate things.

EDIT: In hindsight I think this system can do without the "neighbor spread" effect. It mostly just adds a bunch of extra calculations and disregards things like population density along the border and the like. The frontier of empire A meeting against the frontier of empire B should not result in information transfer, and trying to capture "population density along the border" is just asking for trouble. It's all captured though market nonsense regardless, especially once you factor in market access.
 
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Like, no never or no, not for another 150 years? Because it would be kind of strange if it's 1750 and Russia doesn't know where the New World is without sending their own explorers out...

its easy to design a chain.. lets say "adjacent sub continent" after another 50..
 
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Will spreading of discoveries happen in every nation at once after 150 years, or will it be a gradual process, with nations closer to our borders getting the discovery earlier?

Every nation at once. As it does not really matter that much, I elected with a simple system that has no performance impact.
 
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Oh, so this whole thing is implemented in script + scripted GUI?

That's perfect. Means that if someone just wants to implement an entirely different system, they're free to do so.

Yes. We got something called "generic actions" that are pure script that can handle a chain of N scope selections in the UI, and you can do AI logic for it as well.


Here is the current exploration action.. Now in this case, the "visible" triggers and AI calculation, have for performance reasons been made into c++ code that it calls, but in theory you could do whatever you want.

Code:
# scope:actor = country, scope:recipient = country
start_exploration = {
    type = owncountry
    
    potential = {
        scope:actor = {
            modifier:may_explore = yes
            OR = {
                is_ai = no
                country_tax_base > 30
            }
        }
    }

    allow = {
    }
    
    price = {
        if = {
            limit = {
                exists = scope:target
                scope:target = {
                    adjacent_to_owned_by = scope:actor
                }
            }
            value = price:start_exploration_land
        }
        else = {
            value = price:start_exploration_sea
        }
    }
    
    select_trigger = {
        looking_for_a = area
        source = world
        source_flags = possible_exploration_areas
        name = "start_exploration_select_area"
        none_available_msg_key = "start_exploration_no_areas"
        column = {
            data = area_exploration
        }
        visible = {
            not = { is_being_explored = scope:actor }
        }
    }

    select_trigger = {
        looking_for_a = character
        source = actor
        cache_targets = yes #this list of targets doesn't rely on the previous target so we only need to do it once
        cache_order = yes #whenever we make an assessment, the best character will always be the best character, so only calculate it once and don't repeat all the different combinations of area, character
        name = "start_exploration_select_character"
        none_available_msg_key = "start_exploration_no_characters"
        column = {
            data = character_explorer
        }
        visible = {
            is_valid_for_exploration = yes
        }
    }

    effect = {
        scope:actor = {
            if = {
                limit = {
                    exists = scope:target
                    exists = scope:target_1
                }
                start_exploration = {
                    area = scope:target
                    character = scope:target_1
                }
            }
        }
    }
    
    days_between_checks = {
        if = {
            limit = {
                num_of_ports = 0
            }
            add = 365
        }
        else = {
            add = 30
        }
    }

    ai_will_do = {
        add = "scope:actor.exploration_utility(scope:target|scope:target_1)"
    }
}
 
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How many undiscovered areas are there at the game start for a typical future colonizer such as England or Portugal? Will we have to manually send exploration missions to all of them individually in order to discover the entire map?

I'd expect it to be somewhere between 50 to 250 that you want to explore as a colonizer, unless you want to catch them all.
 
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