Tinto Maps #11 - 19th of July 2024 - Scandinavia

[Fjellfyr]

I'll give two references for Aurland-Voss

1) Mention in King Sverre's saga as having been crossed with army

2) It was the main postroute, and the main route on land. The postroute was started in 1650s, but it was placed on the existing land route that had been used for centuries. Blue is the ferry part of the route, the people of Lærdal were excempt from military service for road clearing to filefjell + ferry duty to Aurland, a duty they had long before the official post route. Was even a revolt when this exemption was revoked in late 1700s.

I do agree that boat was the primary way, but boat was usually the primary route for everything, we should still have notable land crossings. Filefjell was considered the toughest part of the route, not aurland-voss.

EDIT: Realised I didn't make it as a reply. Oh well.

 

[Nis Baggesen]

Then

Kalundborg --> Kalundæburgh
Helsingør --> Hælsingør
Roskilde --> Roschilde
København --> Hafn/Køpmannæhafn
Ringsted --> Ringstade
Slagelse --> Slauløsæ
Vordingborg --> Worthingburg
NyKøbing (Falster) --> Nykobing
Lolland (or Nakskov) --> Laland (or Nacascogh)
Nyborg --> Nyburg
Svendborg --> Schwineburg
Odense --> Othensuuigensem or Odansue, I'd definately go with the latter
Assens --> Asensz (or maybe just keep it Assens...)
Hjørring --> Heringa/Jhoringy, I'd stick with the latter as it's closer to 1337
Skagen --> Skaffuen
Thisted/Thy --> Tystath/Thiut
Aalborg --> Alaburg
Viborg --> Vvibiærgh (perhaps just go with Vibiærgh)
Randers --> Randeros/Randros (IDK, both feels way too Spanish)
Aarhus --> Aros/Arus
Holstebro --> Holstatbro
Ringkøbing --> Rennumkøpingh
Varde --> Wartwik/Warwath/Warwith
Kolding --> Kaldyng
Ribe --> Ripa
Haderslev --> Hathærslefheret/Hatherslef, latter probably works best

I skipped a few of the locations other have problematized, and some that has been suggested new names for already.


Source:

lex.dk (very useful source for surface level things like short etymological explanations and brief historical overviews. It's the official Danish encyclopedia, just search for the contemporary location names on the site.)

Must say I am not very keen on these old spellings. If it was actually a different name, then I might see a point - Like using Hafn as the name before Eric of Pommerania makes it his capital or something - but in most cases it is clearly the same name, just before a few vowel shifts and before there was anything like a defined spelling anyways, so I don’t really think it adds anything. I don’t expect all the event text to read like The Canterbury Tales either, after all.

But it is of course a matter of taste, and I do appreciate the research effort

 

[Theakorn]

Some more input on south-western Norway:

Ullensvang: I suggest changing the raw goods from stone to fruit. This is the core fruit-farming area in Norway, and it started when monks at the lay monastery in Lofthus taught local farmers to grow fruit in the 1200s. There are textual sources from the 1300s that several farms had commercial production of fruit. And this has continued to this day.

Eidfjord: I suggest changing the raw goods from stone to wild game. This has been a core area for commercial reindeer hunting in Hardangervidda, and furs and meat has been an important trade good exported out of this region since at least the viking age.

Stavanger and Jæren: Southern Rogaland is traditionally split in two regions: flat Jæren and hilly Dalane. The cathedral city Stavanger is located in the northern parts of Jæren, and as such Stavanger as a location includes much of the prime areas of Jæren. Jæren as a location also includes the traditional region of Dalane in its entirety. I suggest moving Stavangers border a bit south so it includes the entire Jæren, and rename the southernmost location in Rogaland from Jæren to Dalane. Stavanger should produce sturdy grains to represent its primary agricultural output.

Dalane is a rugged and hilly landscape, and should either produce fish, but there has also been mining here and in the western part of Agder for a long time. I suggest having it produce the lowest value mineral to represent this. Alternatively stone, as this has been exported to Europe from this region in the early modern period.

Øyestad: Iron mining and working has a long history in southern Norway and this should be represented. I suggest changing the raw materials in Øyestad to iron to represent this.

 

[SolarSailor19]

How will you represent the Falun Copper Mine? Will it start with higher development or a particular building in place with special modifiers to represent how signficant it was as a source of copper? Or will you add something like EU4's Great Project system and have it be represented that way?

At a more basic level, do you intend to have an system similar to Great Projects in Project Ceaser to represent signficant buildings/ mines / momuments i.e. Haghia Sophia, Falun Copper MIne, Mausoleum of Halicarnassus?

 

[Andy_Dandy]

You could also look up the population distribution from the census in the 1660s, which probably was the most similar census we have to the population in medieval Norway.

There, all of eastern Norway has a population of about 150k, while all of western Norway (Rogaland + Bergenhus in the game) had 140k, with about 25k in Rogaland (so ~115k in Western Norway north of Rogaland).

If the goal is to be as accurate as possible, eastern Norway should probably have around 150k people, and the rest should be distributed, some towards western Norway and some to Trøndelag

EDIT: Image of historical distribution of population. Also corrected a mistake (Borgarting -> eastern Norway)
View attachment 1166232

Yes, and I’d say even a bigger part of the population lived in the western parts of Norway and Trøndelag in the medieval age then the 1600’s as well. The youngest farms in Norway you find in the eastern part of the country. Eastern Norway being the most populated is a more modern phenomena.

 

[Jarzki]

There should be less Kvens in Kajanaland (Kainuu) which I think should be majority Sapmi with some Karelians as a minority.

Last mention of Sami people in Kuhmo (Southern Kainuu) was in early 1600s. I think it would be more realistic to have Karelians as a majority in Southern Kainuu (Kuhmo - Kajaani axis) as they had been moving into this region for centuries by 1300s, while having Sami be the majority in Northern Kainuu near Suomussalmi and further up. But yes, the whole region should have a mix of both Karelians and Sami peoples.

 

[TheDungen]

Unless Brekne is a very diffrent place than modern Bräkne-Hoby (and in that case I have never heard of it despite being raised in Blekinge by two historians) the order on the map is wrong

West to east they should be Sölvesborg Brekne Ronneby, with Ronnyby swithcing names to Karlskrona when that city is built.

 

[honkajoki]

Quoting myself.

Perhaps add one or two locations of sturdy grains (still not sure I like that name) in Egentliga Finland, Satakunta, or Tavastland? Here's some maps of past cultivation in Finland, page number 432, page 6 in pdf.

Does the iron in Ekenäs represent the collection of bog and lake ore for the whole of Finland? First iron mine was Ojamo (Lohja, guess it's within Kyrkslott) in 1542, it fueled the mills around Ekenäs. But to my understanding, bog and lake ore were more significant sources of iron than mined ore during the game timeframe, there were over 100 small iron mills around the country.

Dear knowledgeable Finns,

How do you feel about the resources in Finland? I did see someone proposing an addition of livestock to Bothnia, if there's been more I've missed it.

Should there be a bit more grain in the West of Finland, to represent the division between the culture of permanent fields in the West and the culture of slash-and-burn in the East?

The iron seems to be at Ekenäs, which had Fiskars and some other iron mills. But was there mining there? Does the iron actually represent the mine of Ojamo, and then it should be in Kyrkslott? Or not be there at all, given that the mine was not yet open. There has been a suggestion about bog iron producing building, if that happens, perhaps remove the iron as location raw material completely? If it's possible to change location's materials, add iron after two centuries or so.

 

[Krey_Lollipop]

Will there be a Sámi formable equivalent to Scandinavia?

I second this, though argueably I don't think it needs to be its own thing. The mountains are still called Scandinavian and there's definitely common cultural ground to build upon if you look past the language. Just as long as they make a good flag for it.

But given that we know nothing yet about what goes on in those unpainted locations that's what I want to know first. I mean with all these locations there's a real possibility we could be getting multiple unique saami tags, but that of course hinges on there being mechanics in place for those to appear, none of which has been shown so far.

 

[-IMJ-]

I’d unite Nordland and Troms into one province and call it Nordlandenes Len or Hålogaland. They werent a real administrated province (len/amt) until the 1600s though.

But you do have some seats of power in i.e. Trondenes (fortified stone church) and Tromsø (fortress and church), asswell as locations as Tjelsund and Sommarøy which have a huge collection of archeaological sites dating to the middle age, that can sort of justify that they have Troms as a separate administrate province. But I'm guessing the real reason is that they want to split it up to avoid the province being to large, because based on historical sources Hålogaland could be all the land from Møre all the way up to Finnmark.

 

[zobo]

Province names naming convetions.
There are way too many swedish names in the map. The coast from Pedersöre to Åbo is fine,
as is Ekenäs and Kyrkslätt, but the rest should be finnish. The swedish speakers in ostrobothnia are very much concentrated in the extreme west, so any province inland having swedish populations of note in the 1300s sounds unlikely.

There have been other suggestions by other people, and I think many of them more knowledgeable than me. Please use these if no other suggestions for the place exist.

Kaustby -> Kaustinen
Lappo -> Lapua
Storkyro -> Isokyrö
Ulfsby -> Ulvila
Tammerfors -> Tampere
Tavastehus -> Hämeenlinna
Hvittis -> Huittinen
Pöytis -> Pöytyä
Helsinge -> Helsinki
Liljendal -> Orimattila (Liljendal is way too swedish for the time.)
Heinola -> Mäntyharju (that area has one small town.)
Laukas -> Laukaa (I hardly think this was a hotbed of swedish colonization)
Vederlax -> Vironlahti
Viborg -> Viipuri
Toksovo -> Toksova (Toksovo (То́ксово) in russian)
Konevets -> Konevitsa (this is the name of an island in lake Ladoga. I would use Petroskoi(fi) Petrovskoe(ru) as alternative name.
Kexholm -> Käkisalmi
Jäskis -> Ruokolahti. I don't know what Jäskis is supposed to be, but Finnish language it is not.
Heinijoki could be named Imatra, but is basically fine.
Toksburg (swedish) -> Oreshek (Founded 1323) Finnish name would be Pähkinälinna.
Naming it Toksburg when it was only conquered by Magnus Eriksonn 1348 and held untill taken/ruined by novgorod 1351 sounds a bit off.
Sordavala -> Sortavala (typo)
Vartsila -> Värtsilä
Loymola -> Loimola (typo)
Mökhö -> Motko (if we go by the finnish name of the russian village)
Kajana -> Kajaani
Sikkalatva -> Siikalatva (typo)
Uleåborg -> Oulu
Paltamo -> Puolanka (Paltamo is a bit too close to Kajaani)
Utajärvi -> Muhos (easier to say / write)
Kuivajärvi -> Ii (ditto)
Kiemi -> Kemi (typo)
Rovaniemi -> Pello (Pello is a border town, a very old finnish settlement.)
Korvala -> Rovaniemi (A minor border tweak may be in order, but look better to me to have Rovaniemi in the interior.)



For the north Finland, I don't really see why the locations in the modern day nation would be using finnish names. They are under no game recognized government and there are little if any finnish speaking people there yet. I would suggest using Sami names for the places.

Below are the northern Finnish provinces with their alternative Sami names, which would probably give distinct flavor.
(Finnish) Utsjoki / (Sami(northern) Ohcejohka
(Finnish) Nunnanen / (Sami(northern) Njunnás
(Finnish) Inari / (Sami(northern)) Anár / (swedish) Enare
(Finnish) Ivalo / (Sami(northern)) Avvil
(Finnnish) Savukoski / (Sami(northern)) Suovvaguoika
(Finish) Sodankylä / (Sami(northern)) Soađegilli
(Finish) Kittilä / (Sami(northern)) Gihttel
(Finish) Rovaniemi / (Sami(northern)) Roavvenjárga
(Finish) Kemijärvi / (Sami(northern)) Giemajávri
(Finish) Salla / (Sami(Ivalo)) Kyelijävri
I did not find northern sami name for salla, but It looks like Kyelijávri would be likely.

Source: Wikipedia (finnish)


I also looked at the map and seeing no swamps think I might need to look at the issue a bit. There is a lot of swampland in Finland, the current land area is 20% swamp, one of the highest concentrations in the world. A lot of swamp has been dried out, so the map should be a lot more swampy. I'll post in the near future on that.

 

[tuomaskousa00]

This being my home region, it really caught my eye and I think the locations are wrong here.

First of all, Riistina should be Ristiina, It is misspelled.

The we come to the locations. As you can see in the map of Finland's municipalities today, Iitti (or Itis on the PC map) is like twice the size of the current municipality and actually encompasses the area of Heinola, which is located in PC way too east, more around where Mäntyharju is located. Heinola should be north of Lahti, taking area from both southern Joutsa and northern Itis. This is something that must be reviewed in my opinion. If I would be making this area, I would rename Heinola to Mäntyharju, remove Itis completely and split the south between Lahti and Kouvola, take the northern part of Itis and have Heinola there (or if you want to have a more relevant name for the time period, it should be named Jyränkö). There is a case to be made that Joutsa should be called Sysmä and Lahti be called Hollola, as those were the main villages of very large regions back then.

I understand this may be nitpicking for a very irrelevant area for the game, but I am sure you would have the same amount of attention to detail if it was your very home region in question.

 

[-IMJ-]

Just a couple of thoughts on the names. There might be an argument to have the province of Reisa re-named to Arnøy or Skjervøy based on where archaeological sources point to the biggest activity. Furthermore, both Alta and Hammerfest are more recent names, and should perhaps be called Talvik and Sørøya instead.

Also I'm wondering, out of curiosity, if the medieval fortress' and the churches at Tromsø, Vardøhus and Trondenes will be represented at the start of the game? And since you're saying the pops are partially based on guestimates, shouldn't the provinces of Trondenes, Troms and Vardø have a slightly higher population due to these signs of present royal power and material sedentism that the presence churches and fortresses represent (clergy and nobility)?

 

[Noxtrin]

Awsome to see Sweden, I just two nitpicks around Bergslagen/western Västmanland. I have taken a screenshot of the Map for readers to locate where in Sweden we are.

1. Is there any reason for the lake Hjälmaren to be missing? Since it is Swedens forth largest lake, and a lot of other smaller lakes have made it in to the game. Plus it could restrict some army movements in the area.

2. I also think that Lindesås/Lindesberg should exist since it was founded around the 1300, and got its city privileges around 1650 at the same time as Nora and is currently the largest city in the area. I think that either to replace Kopparberget with Lindesås or replace Nora, and Nora should then replace Grythyttan.
2.1 (If to replace Kopparberget). The copper ore in Kopparberget was found during the 1600 hundreds and before that the area was called "Lindesås Finnmark".
2.2 (If to replace grythyttan with Nora and Nora with Lindesås). Grythyttan was founded in the 1600s when silver ore was found in the location. Before that there were smaller hyttor in the area. With how the Map currently looks most of the Grythyttan location is encapsulated within the Noraskog which is the historical name of the Nora and Grythyttan bergslag (the other attached map, the grayed out area is Nora Bergslag while the one to the west is the Grythyttan bergslag). While the current Nora Location is currently more matching to the Lindes and Ramsberg Bergslag (and modern municipality borders, but that should not be a deciding factor). So in my opinion this is the most reasonable change.

I tried to attach links as sources but I had to remove them because the message counted as spam according to the filter.
But the gist of what i said can be found under swedish wikipedia, but not all my sources

 

[A_S_K_]

Why have you named the area Oslo that instead of Kristiania, that was the name of the city before they changed it?

 

[zobo]

I tried to find maps showing swamps in finland. I found one, Lapland only.

Analyzing the Lapland map: (attached)

The following should have marsh terrain:

Sodankylä
Kemi
Kuivaniemi
Salla
Ranua
Posio
Kuusamo
Taivalkoski
Suomussalmi

Going more south, we use Karttapaikka aerial photos to look at potential marshlands.
First, we look at topography to see flat areas that could have marshy potential, then we check for
easy to see water drainage ditches in forests. They cost money to make and maintain, so only
in areas where the natural water would not flow and create marshy conditions do you see them.


And oh boy do you see them.
Kuhmo,
Sotkamo,
Paltamo,
Nurmes,
Juuka,
Joensuu,
Kajaani - Swamp.
Hiidensalmi: still a lot, but let's err on the foresty side

And then I get to bothnic coast. Yes, More!. More ditches. The following provinces should be swamp:
Siikalatva, Raahe (brahestad) Kokkola (Karleby) Pietarsaari (Pedersöre) Viitasaari Lapua (Lappo)
Vöyri (Vörå), Isokyrö (Sturkyrö) Koppo

Korshom does not seem to have the extensive ditch networks. Maybe they are just lazy or something....

Sastamala (Sastmola) seems to be the south end, (still swamp though) and I could not find all that much further south. It is to be expected, the land is not quite so flat as to reduce water flow.

I firmly believe those places would without human interference have extensive swamp areas, enough to affect armies and everything else the way swamps do.

For some reason I cannot fathom the Finnish aerial photography does not reach the modern day Russian areas, so I can't really say much about that, except that there definitely are swamps there.

I did check the first map areas and I have to agree with the map. A lot of dismal sparse vegetation with swampy lakes. In some areas you have hills and swamps only in between.

Ditch networks were rare, I would guess because the lumber transportation costs and other factors I am too lazy to delve into make them economically unviable. Maybe.

If you want to see finland from the air: https://asiointi.maanmittauslaitos.fi/karttapaikka/?lang=en
I would suggest hillshade to see flat areas, then max aerial image with about half hillshading. It makes sense once you are there.

Now the real question is: does The super secret game Everyone Understands to be FIVE out of five in quality allow marshes to be drained into forests and
perhaps forests turned into farmlands? Because during the time period in question such things did happen.

Any comments?

 

[Stormy seas]

Why have you named the area Oslo that instead of Kristiania, that was the name of the city before they changed it?

That was the name during danish rule

 

[Red_warning]

Why have you named the area Oslo that instead of Kristiania, that was the name of the city before they changed it?

I think they changed it to from Oslo to Kristiania when it burned down, then back to Oslo again.

 

[Hippo187]

It seems a bit odd to me, seeing hills as the terrain on the norwegian coast. In my opinions there is quite a big difference between a fjord and "hills"-countryside so that it might favorable for the fjords to be their own terrain type with unique modifiers as they mostly are pretty good natural harbors and its quite easy to defend, but also easy to blockade.

Though I'm not quite sure, what modifiers it'd like to see, but some ideas might be:
- port size (depends on, whether it is even relevant to keep your fleets harboured or maintained; maybe add to the naval force limit)
- blockade efficency (as a bonus for the blockading side)
- fleet defence/offence (as the defending army trying to eliviate a blockade)
- more sailors than soldiers (life in a fjord would naturally be more focused around living off the sea than the land, I guess)

And fjords wouldnt be there to only be used in Norway, you could also add it as a terrain in places like the north american west coast, new zealand, iceland, greenland, scotland and so on.

Most modifiers would apply to most of Norways coastline, maybe it would be an option to insert a special local modifier to the most prominent and most populated fjords.

 

[Foke]

Unless Brekne is a very diffrent place than modern Bräkne-Hoby (and in that case I have never heard of it despite being raised in Blekinge by two historians) the order on the map is wrong

West to east they should be Sölvesborg Brekne Ronneby, with Ronnyby swithcing names to Karlskrona when that city is built.

View attachment 1166347View attachment 1166349

I think Rønneby is in the correct place but Brekne could be renamed to Lykkeby/Lyckeby/Lyckå as it was a Market Town