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Victoria 3 - Dev Diary #129 - Discrimination Rework

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Happy Thursday Victorians!
It’s me, Lino and in today’s Dev Diary I’m going to walk you through the upcoming changes to one of the game’s central society features, namely the discrimination system.

Until now, discrimination was always binary in Victoria 3. A Pop either was discriminated against or they were not. This has led to a fairly one-dimensional feature where there’s not a lot of variety in what Pops can be experiencing. It also has made it hard for us to add harsh consequences to discriminated against Pops since it would have affected so many Pops around the world.

So we are taking some steps to make that more interesting. First of all, we’re saying goodbye to talking about discrimination. Instead, we are introducing the opposite, Acceptance.
Each Pop will have an Acceptance value between 0 and 100. This value is determined by the Pop’s country’s laws, in particular the Citizenship and Church & State groups which play the biggest role here. There are other laws that will have an impact, but we are going to talk about those in a later Dev Diary.

Primary cultures are clearly the points of authority when it comes to Acceptance values
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As you can see, the old rules of cultural similarity still apply in the new system. Now though, instead of being immediately accepted if the culture shares a heritage trait, they will gain a high acceptance value bonus for example. This allows a broader range of acceptance, from the cultures that are facing violent hostility to the primary cultures who will always have the highest acceptance value.
The religious impact is changed to provide a bonus if a religion shares a trait with the state religion.

This brings us one step closer to the full picture, but we’re not quite there yet. The Acceptance value actually determines which Acceptance Status a Pop has. There are five possible Statuses, ranging from Full Acceptance to Violent Hostility, which will be used in order to apply consequences to the Pops in question.

Figure.09: WIP list of effects. This is definitely going to change - we’re looking at solutions to make it more readable for release.
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You can see that we are not only reworking the system to fit the new vision, but are also expanding on it with new effects, besides the Acceptance value itself. From simple statistical changes like the tax burden per acceptance status to rules for who can work in government buildings or serve in your military, we have added a decent amount of new things to the laws.
Another factor that determines a Pop’s Acceptance value is the age of the Pop’s cultural community in their state. An immigrant Pop that is "fresh off the boat" will not be as accepted as that of another culture which has been there for 30 years already. No matter what your laws say, your Pops will need some time to get used to the new faces in their neighborhood–but, eventually, the new arrivals will reach the Acceptance value which the laws have determined for them.

“Have you seen the looks they gave us? By myself, I couldn’t stay here, but with you by my side I know I will make it.”
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Of course you can still improve your Pops’ situation by enacting more progressive laws. These provide higher acceptance bonuses to cultures. For example Ethnostate doesn’t grant any bonus to cultures that share a non-heritage cultural trait with your primary culture, but National Supremacy grants +25 acceptance if they do.

Alright, so you passed Multiculturalism, but you didn’t think your Pops would immediately hug and welcome the people they were despising yesterday, did you?
Law enactments that increase a Pop’s Acceptance value will suffer from a penalty much the same as the newly established cultural communities, which will decay over time. This shows the establishment of these new laws quite well and delays the full effectiveness of the more progressive laws.

Another thing we are changing is conversion and assimilation (so that your Pops can escape from the undesirable lower statuses of Acceptance).
When 1.8 comes out later this year, Pops will be able to assimilate and convert to any culture or religion that would provide them with a higher acceptance value, even if it is not the primary culture or state religion. There is a minimum assimilation value difference that needs to be crossed in order for them to be eligible. For example if their current Acceptance is at 25 and the minimum assimilation value difference from the Citizenship law is defined at 50, their target’s culture Acceptance would need to be 75 or higher in order for them to assimilate.
This still looks at cultures that are present in the same state, so if none of them have a value of 75 or higher, the assimilation could not happen. The assimilation process may also still be forbidden by laws, e.g. under all laws it is currently not allowed for members of the lowest status to assimilate at all. Similarly, Pops of the highest status also do not assimilate in the current setup, as they already possess enough rights and privileges to enjoy a good life.

All of these changes require a fairly substantial rework of our interface. A lot is currently still in development and is coming in pieces, so you will have to discover it on your own, but I still wanted to provide you with a faint idea of what’s coming.
The Cultures panel has been renamed to Society, which fits better since it also includes Statuses and Religion. The acceptance statuses are listed in a new tab, providing an overview of what percentage of Pops falls under which status and who exactly that is.

WIP interface showing the breakdown of acceptance statuses in your country
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In the end, we hope this feature rework will enhance your experience with regards to managing your Pops and that it will show much more variety in the Pops’ lives. Especially on the lower end of the spectrum, you should see a lot more consequences, as sad as that is.
This rework is an important step for us, since we can make better use of this system in future narrative content too, and we also have some ideas for future mechanical changes that require this rework as a foundation.

That’s all for today. Next week, on October 3, I’m handing it back to Martin again, who will provide some more information on what we’re doing with civil wars. That should be an interesting one, be sure to check it out!
 
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A very welcomming feature indeed! This could provide a base for a system where the player can intervene more into the buildup of their society.
Have you thought about including buidlings or institutions for simulating the process that migrating pops would go through while integrating into another society? This could add more decision making to the migration gameplay, because at the moment the only direct controll you have over migration is in decrees and laws.
 
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How does this work with immigration? Will pops that have low acceptance in their origin country immigrate to one where they will have higher acceptance? Is it possible for pops to immigrate to countries where they will have lower acceptance if there is opportunity for increased standard of living in spite of that?
Low acceptance in current state should drive up a pop's migration desire, so that they'll want to move. They could theoretically move into an area where they face lower acceptance, but only if the target country allows pops of low acceptance to move in there.
I hope we can also make the potential new acceptance part of the choice for which state to go to, but can't make any promises on that as of right now.
 
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Very cool improvements! Looks like this patch is going to be a huge improvement to the granularity of systems in general.

One question though: How does this interact with slavery? It seems like some regimes, especially colonial states, would convert low acceptance pops into slaves. Is that something we can expect to see?
 
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This seems well and good, but I'm a bit confused, are there things outside of Laws that impact Acceptance, or is it still only managed by these?
Cultural homelands provide a small bonus to a Pop's cultural acceptance, but that's about it for now. See my other replies for potential future additions.
 
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This is all great but what is there to stop you from enacting multiculturalism every single game? This law is currently meta as it abolishes all discrimination. Would there still be some discrimination left under multiculturalsim or is it just for the first few years after you enacted that law where you will face discrimination? Also what are the incentives of discrimination outside of RP?
We are taking a look at Multiculturalism and how it impacts this.
Other more discriminatory laws are providing some bonuses to the Pops at the top who enjoy the privileges.
We'll have to tweak and balance this further certainly, but the underlying principles of it are present already in our internal version.
 
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Will any other temporary factors influence acceptance? I’m especially thinking of lobbies - surely the French living in my country would be negatively affected by a loud and influential Anti-French League.
We like that idea a lot and will see what we can do. That's true in general for tie-ins with other systems as well.
No promises though, we have a lot on our plate already.
 
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2 Questions:

A) Is assimilation still forbidden in Homelands? E.g can Hungarians assimialte if their acceptence status is low enought? (I really hope so=

B) One of the effect states: "Can work in Military Buildings." Does this include conscription? If yes can you please split it up in Conscription ajnd Standing Army and if no can you please add one for conscription?
 
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So wait, does that mean that Africans, Indians, Arabs and Asians that migrate to the US are going to assimilate into Afro-American culture?
 
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While you are reworking the way cultural assimilation work, will you look after homelands because some of them are strange ?

For instance, every state in canada (except quebec) is an anglo-canadian homeland but in some state there isn't a single anglo-canadian at the start of the game (like nunavut)
 
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Beautiful additions here :)

Can we also, even not within multiculturalism be able to elevate a culture to a status of accepted even if not within the current law (like you can accept cultures in eu4 for instance)

to give an example, when i annex Siam, i would like to have the domicile culture there to be respected and have full citizenship, but under my country rule, i would like for them to not be assimilated even if i have assimilation laws but that they grow and expand their populace, and not be overrun by ie. chinese immigrants that flock to my expanding industry there

maybe its a bit too niche or granular but id like to know its even possible down the line
 
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For now: Yes, that can happen.
But we're looking at potentially adding restrictions like heritage. That's gonna upset the balance in major fashion though, so we'll have to investigate in a bit more detail first before making a call.
What seems like a decent compromise to us is that we make Pops highly prefer assimilation to cultures of same heritage, so that it'd happen less often. We'll have to see how much more we can get done on that front.
How difficult would it be to allow cultures to dynamically form during gameplay?

Africans turning Chinese to escape discrimination seems like it would be less of an issue if African immigrants could form, say, an Afro-Australian culture instead. Pops jumping heritages every decade doesn’t make sense, but as you said, disallowing it would wreak havoc on game balance.
 
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Im not sure i get this... So if pops are "a bit discriminated" they wont assimilate, but if they are "very discriminated" they will? Does that make sense with the EIC or with afro-american cultures in the USA?
Not sure if pops assimilating to a different heritage makes any sense whatsoever... Feels like their race just gets erased.
If Pops are very very discriminated or barely discriminated they will not assimilate. In the first case because more established Pops basically won't let them, in the second because they don't feel the need to.
As mentioned in other comments, we're looking at the heritage. Just fyi, in the current version of the game this is already the case.
 
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Will politicians, military leaders, and agitators now spawn from non-primary cultures? I would like to have a Xhosa as president of South Africa on my next campaign (see attached screenshots)
By default only primary culture characters spawn. But we got a new tool in the box that allows us to manually list valid cultures per country. So, a modder can do that.
As developers, we will start making more use of this as time goes on, but will not be able to deliver a full pass over all countries on release.
 
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How will the Algerian Deparments JE for France look under the acceptance mechanics? Will the Arabs and Berbers in the three Algerian states require the highest status instead of non-discrimination?
Maghrebi and Berber both need to be on second rate citizen acceptance status or higher (second highest or higher). This is the default definition of "being accepted" in most of the narrative content that we had to rework for this.
 
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previously we only had 5 laws since cultures can only be categorized into 5 categories i.e. primary, shared heritage trait and cultural trait etc.. With the new system do you plan to add more laws? For example a "weak" multiculturalism where different heritage only gets +80 acceptance vs a "true" multiculturalism where every culture gets +100 acceptance?

also I'm not seeing homeland getting mentioned in this DD. can you consider adding homeland related mechanics, giving pops in homeland extra acceptance with value determined by law?
MAYBE we'll have time to add one more law which should cover a somewhat specific use case which I don't want to mention yet in case we don't get to it :p
But it would affect homelands actually :)

You're right, I haven't mentioned homelands in the DD, but it is actually going to provide a bonus to acceptance when pops live in their cultural homeland.
 
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We are taking a look at Multiculturalism and how it impacts this.
Other more discriminatory laws are providing some bonuses to the Pops at the top who enjoy the privileges.
We'll have to tweak and balance this further certainly, but the underlying principles of it are present already in our internal version.
Imperator had a system by which enfranchised pops became more and more disgruntled as more cultures became integrated that could potentially be mirrored here

Maybe moving toward less discriminatory laws makes primary culture pops more prone to radicalization from SoL decreases and more likely to support discriminatory laws. That way you could have a situation where as long as the economy is moving smoothly less discrimination is accepted by those cultures but as soon as the economy worsens (boom bust cycles when) they become increasingly discriminatory to perceived outsiders

This way acceptance becomes something with the existing benefits but can also intensify destabilizing events
 
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The different levels are nice, but everybody was expecting societal discrimination the state just can't do anything about.

This system is still 100% driven by laws, with just a timed decay modifier slapped on top.
Personally, I'd argue a 30 year long penalty for when a new culture arrives in Ohio is already quite impactful, but I can totally see you'd want to see more and we do too.
It sets the base for any societal discrimination. We do have some things on our minds that we'd like to add at later stages that needed this before we could embark on them.
 
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Do discriminated pops receive any modifiers to military performance?
Like it would probably make sense that discriminated pops who can work in the military see a negative in morale gain and organization gain. That would help reflect Austria's military challenges, but I don't see it in the list of multipliers.
Nice idea :)
I'm adding it to our list of things to discuss, but can't make any promises.
 
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