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Victoria 3 - Dev Diary #131 - Famines, Starvation, Harvest Conditions

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Hello and welcome to another dev diary! I’m Alex and today I bring you famine, starvation, ruin and disast– I mean, happy Thursday!

Back in dev diary #126 we mentioned how for 1.8 we’re looking at how the availability of food affects the people in your country. Up until now, if food prices were high, that would lead to Pops dropping in Wealth. As a consequence of that, Pops would become unhappy and have their birth and mortality rates change. In extreme cases they would drop below Standard of Living 5, which would mark them as Starving and make their mortality rate be higher than the birthrate, resulting in the Pop’s population decreasing over time.

This is fine, but it created some problems we wanted to tackle. For one, Pop Needs don’t have shortages, so when the price caps out at +75%, that’s it. Food is always available, it just gets expensive. Another issue is that the starving status is directly tied to what Standard of Living the Pop has, meaning that regardless of why Standard of Living drops below 5, the pop is marked as Starving. Even if food is essentially free and the actual issue is that clothes are expensive. Lastly, the effects of starvation don’t scale as much as they probably should, so even at SoL 1, Pops can live on quite a while.

With all that in mind, there’s three main features we’ve added to flesh out this aspect of the game:
  • Starvation
  • Famines
  • Harvest Conditions

Below we’ll go into each of them in detail. Everything mentioned in this dev diary will be made available for free when update 1.8 arrives later this year.

Starvation, now ✨dynamic✨

As mentioned, up until now starvation has been a fixed status tied to specific SoL levels. In 1.8, all pops will have a metric for Food Security instead, which measures to what degree that Pop has access to sufficient and nutritious food. If a Pop’s Food Security gets too low, it will first be considered to be in a state of Mild Starvation. Here, Pops will start getting some penalties to their birth rate and mortality. If Food Security drops even lower, this status will change to Severe Starvation, where the Pops’ population starts decreasing fast. To be clear, both Mild and Severe Starvation penalties get progressively worse as Food Security drops, so it’s not a hard threshold where suddenly the full effects are applied.

You can now at a glance tell how much you are forgetting to feed your population while building another workshop. The map mode shows for each state if there are a lot of Pops starving there (proportional to total state population) as well as if they are mostly suffering from mild or severe starvation
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Now you must be wondering: “Okay, but what actually is Food Security? How is it measured?” We’ll get there, don’t worry, first I need to talk about Pop Needs though.

If you’ve spent some time with the game, you know that the way Pop Consumption works is that at different Wealth levels Pops need to satisfy certain Needs. These Needs can be things like Basic Food or Simple Clothing for poorer Pops or Luxury Food and Drinks for richer Pops. Each of these needs can be satisfied through a set of different goods. In the case of Basic Food, it can be satisfied by consuming different amounts of Grain, Fish, Meat, Fruit or Groceries.

Basic Food Shortages​

As mentioned, shortages currently only affect buildings while Pops are completely unaffected. In fact, we even only mark goods as having shortages at all if they are consumed by buildings.

In 1.8 that is changing somewhat: we’re introducing shortages for goods in the Basic Food Pop Need category. The calculation for if a good is in shortage is the same as before: if the number of buy orders exceeds the number of sell orders by too much it’s considered a shortage, so no surprises there.

What is somewhat different is that we’re also adding a shortage value to the Basic Food Pop Need itself. This is calculated essentially as the average shortage value for the goods in the Pop Need weighted over how much Pops are actually consuming each good. In other words, if 90% of your Pops’ food consumption is Grain and 10% is Fish, a Grain shortage will have a much stronger impact than a Fish shortage.

Nothing has really changed here, but I needed to break up the wall of text and wanted to remind you that this tooltip is in the game
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I’m sure some of you will be wondering if this means other Pop Needs will also be getting shortages - and the answer is no (for now at least). Contrary to building shortages where we can just add throughput penalties if goods are in shortage, for Pop Needs we need to consider what role the goods play to be able to determine what penalties a shortage in those Needs would entail. For now, we’re only doing this for Basic Food (with the penalty being Starvation, more details below), but having a defined way of dealing with and calculating shortages for pop consumption definitely opens the door for other Needs having shortages in the future (maybe heating or clothing, for instance?).

To help you keep track of the starvation levels in your country, we’re introducing a new panel which quickly shows you how many people in your country are starving and if you have any famines or shortages active. Additionally it also gives you information about active harvest conditions that might be affecting your states and what proportion of total basic food pop consumption each good has.
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Food Security​

With the background of how Basic Food Shortages are set up, we can finally go into the details on how Food Security works. As mentioned above, this is the metric we use to determine whether a pop is starving and how strong the effects are. Food Security is a value between 0 and 100%, where at 0% the pop is in a state of severe starvation and at 100% the pop has full and easy access to all the food it requires.

What determines a Pop’s food security is mainly a combination of two factors:
  • How much the Basic Food Pop Need is in shortage in the state in question
  • How much money the pop is spending on Basic Food compared to their whole buy package at base price

We’ve already covered the shortage part, so let me explain the second factor some more: At different wealth levels, pops need to buy different amounts of goods from a number of Needs. What we’re doing here is taking the total price for all those needs while considering only unmodified base prices and then comparing it to how much the Pop is actually spending on Basic Food.

Here’s an example: a pop at Wealth 9 needs to consume goods to cover for their Simple Clothing, Crude Items, Basic Food, Heating and Intoxicants needs. The total value of what they need at base price is 314. After considering market availability and all of that, food is actually very expensive though, meaning the pop is spending 220 on Basic Food. We then simply compare their real food expenses with their total base price expenses: 220 / 314 = 70%. That is a lot of money going towards food!

You might be rich enough to consume a country’s worth of Fine Art output, but you’ll be quickly reminded you can’t eat statues when food runs out
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Food Security then is a value that starts at 100% and is reduced by the two values above. If in addition to the 70% Basic Food Expense Share, food is also in a 20% shortage, the food security for the pop in question will be 100% - 70% - 20% = 10%, putting them firmly into severe starvation.

The reasons we went for this set of calculations in particular are primarily the following:
  • It means that as pops increase in Wealth, they’ll be less affected by increasing prices (due to food becoming a smaller part of the pop’s total buy package)
  • It means that the effects of starvation can become increasingly worse even after the price caps out and shortages become more severe
  • It means that there being literally no food in a state will affect rich pops as well even if they have a bunch of money, because you can’t eat money. (rich pops don’t consume basic food, but the shortage factor still affects them)

All of this leads to starvation being something that primarily affects poorer pops, but in the right (or wrong, I guess) circumstances it could also affect rich pops, or it could even affect no one. Have enough food and prices will be so low that food won’t be the primary concern even for the poorest in society. This is of course easier said than done, as getting your grain prices down to -75% price should be very hard for any reasonably large country. Still, it’s not mechanically impossible.

As part of decoupling starvation from Standard of Living we also had to update the Standard of Living icons and names for some of the levels
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Famines, a political classification​

If Starvation is what happens to your pops when they don’t have enough food, Famines are simply a political classification that comes up when enough pops are suffering from starvation. Specifically, we look at two metrics:
  • How many people in total are starving in the state in question?
  • How many people are specifically suffering from severe starvation in the state in question?
The goal here is that a famine should feel serious and encompassing. It should both affect a significant portion of the population in the state, but also be severe enough. In fact, this kind of classification is loosely modeled after real world classifications today (albeit with different values as the 19th Century had a different standard for such things).
As a primarily political classification, famines don’t have any direct effects on your pops. A bunch of Stockholm bureaucrats finally noticing that people in the Dominion of Norway are starving and calling it a famine doesn’t on its own make any difference for the poor Norwegians. Instead, a famine being declared is more of a political event. It can act as a starting point for narrative content surrounding famines and how to deal with them for instance.

Famines also act as a warning signal for the player. They tell you how long they’ve lasted, how many people are affected as well as estimations for how many deaths and unrealized births the famine has led to so you can feel extra bad for neglecting them.

When a famine is declared you can see it front and center in the new Food Security panel
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Harvest Conditions​

On top of the revised mechanics for starvation and famines, we also wanted to add some more volatility and unpredictability to the game with Harvest Conditions. These conditions are occurrences (often tied to weather, but not necessarily) that can happen to your states and primarily affect your agricultural sector. Here’s a breakdown of different aspects of harvest conditions:

An example of what a harvest condition can look like. The Effects described are further multiplied by the intensity in each specific affected state
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Effects​

While a lot of the effects will be tied to increasing or decreasing agricultural throughput, the effects are not strictly limited to agriculture. Floods and Wildfires might have drastic effects on your infrastructure for instance. Additionally, conditions are not necessarily negative: a pollinator surge could increase your fruit production or optimal sun conditions could lead to a particularly good harvest.

For Floods and Droughts we added some effects to the 3D map itself, so you can be more immersed while thinking about how you failed your country and let your people starve
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Regional limitations​

Harvest conditions happen on a state region level, but are often limited to certain parts of the world (Locust Swarms won’t happen in Northern Europe and Frosts won’t happen in Egypt for instance).

Duration, Range and Intensity​

Harvest conditions have variable durations, range and intensity. One drought might be milder and limited to just a couple of states, while another affects a large area for a long time. Intensity acts as a multiplier to the base effects conditions have.

If you’re curious about what harvest conditions are active around the globe you can look it up on your Victorian era weather app of choice
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Incompatibilities and Synergies​

It wouldn’t make much sense if a drought suddenly happened in a region affected by torrential rains, so most harvest conditions have a set of other conditions they’re not compatible with. A drought will never happen in a state affected by a flood, nor will a flood happen in a state with a drought. A heatwave could lead to an increased chance of a drought happening and subsequently even a wildfire. In such a case the drought would replace the heatwave and later get replaced by the wildfire.

We’ve also made changes to some existing content so it meshes with the new Harvest Conditions and Starvation. Numbers are still WIP, but should give you an idea of where we’re taking it
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That’s it for me! Hope you enjoyed learning more about how we’re dealing with famines and other aspects of human suffering. Join us two weeks from now for the anniversary week marking two years since we launched Victoria 3! (Two years already!? Who turned on Speed 5?)
 
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I really like the different harvest conditions, especially the negative modifiers like wildfires and droughts. I wonder how possible it would be to simulate global warming with such a system?
 
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(in response to food rationing)
Nothing planned for that right now, no. Do you have any suggestions for how that would work?
Suggestion:

At the cost of Bureaucracy and Money, the government "subsidises" all (basic) food purchases. If it's at a per-state granularity, then there'd be an authority cost too. If it's a country-wide thing, then I imagine a button on the Budget page that can only be pushed following a law being passed to unlock it.

The effect is that Basic Food Expense Share is gone from the food security equation (since the government is footing all food costs). For extra detail, distinguish (as separate laws) between "government subsidies whatever the normal buy orders would be" vs "government first 'sets' all buy orders to be the same for all pops regardless of SoL then subsidises them". In other words, will the rich get more rations or not (and how dissatisfied will the rich be in the latter case)?
 
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Will y'all also be otherwise adjusting how Standard of Living effects population growth? It would be interesting to see a pop growth system where high food security and healthcare are what lead to high pop growth rates with Standard of Living being relatively unimportant but Literacy as a negative factor on birth rate specifically. This would make it align much closer to McKeown's thesis which is afaik pretty undisputed at this point.
Nah, while his thesis was a good base line for understanding and researching pop growth, since then its been refuted. It has too many inconsistencies and special cases that can't be explained by his arguments or other times even go directly against them.

Standart of Living is an conglomeration of different factors, and surely high food security and afforadle healthcare are obviously among the bigger factos that makes up SoL. So calling it (relatively) unimportant is meaningless since having food security and healthcare will by definition be a high SoL. SoL is a scale used to measure the quality and not the real thing effecting your live. It would be like calling Thermometer showing you have high body temperature as a factor that influenced you to have a feaver :)
 
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Ate witout table : -5
Minor breakdown risk

Is this what you really want ? :p
Should east asian cultures that dont use much furniture for happy dinning and procreating lower demand for furniture goods?
 
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I really like this addition. But it heavily relies on rebalancing pop consumption as well, so that agricultural goods are actually profitable. If nothing changes, however, I feel like I'll be forced to do one, or both, of two things to protect my population from food insecurity:
  • Subsidize my food producing buildings
  • Waste precious convoys on food trade
If that is the exact intent from the Devs, than fine. It would be nice to have some confirmation though.
so just like RL, small developed countries need to subsidize their agriculture for cultural reasons (regional food), food security, maintenance of national sovereignty and invest in other bigger developing countries agriculture to import the goods. I think what should be improved is the trade system and not the profitability of the agricultural goods.
 
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so just like RL, small developed countries need to subsidize their agriculture for cultural reasons (regional food), food security, maintenance of national sovereignty and invest in other bigger developing countries agriculture to import the goods. I think what should be improved is the trade system and not the profitability of the agricultural goods.
also big developed countries also subsidize their agriculture. And the richer they are, more they subsidize.
 
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For the current system we use a fair bit of custom logic to make it work, so it's not possible to add additional versions of this just through script unfortunately. You can expand the list of goods in basic food of course or even replace all of them, but the system is specifically made to tie basic food, food security, starvation and famines together, so all of those connections are hardcoded. This is largely because we need to make those calculations in code for both practical and performance reasons.
Dang. I felt that one of the easiest dunks on here would be to make a double of this for a Heating basket (in a mod, I mean), which is something that goes extremely hand in hand with food wrt people not dying.

Nonetheless, it's really great to see this DD kinda pointing to a whole new plethora of features just like the Companies did. Maybe not as expected by the team, but definitely seems that food security and harvest conditions might end up being another great avenue of elements to add to the game.
 
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Will there be blight and can it spread like a pandemic system?

And of course, will potatoes be separated from the general grain good?
I really hope potatoes are separated. I'm currently reading Charles Mann's 1493 and the devs should read it if they're not convinced, because it has a long section about the effect of the humble potato on 19th century history. It's much more than just the Great Famine.
Great DD, I love the work on the map, I might be alone but I love closing in and looking at map details and its animations.

Can we have those animated 3D too?! Hurricanes, Typhoons, wildfires...
TBH I wouldn't want the devs investing much more effort in this areas. Maybe it's worthwhile if you are playing on an exceptionally large screen or a very small country (Krakow!), but most of the time I have to be zoomed out in order to see essential information, so these detailed graphics at the highest zoom level are invisible and useless to me.
While this is wouldn't work as a shortage, exactly, I feel like the availability of a hypothetical "Education" need group being tied to literacy would deepen the pop system a lot - perhaps the introduction of the newspaper could increase literacy of it's readers and as such indirectly increase political radicalism?
Cool. Will there be a climate and weather system that affects pop consumption (not just food) in the future? It always feel weird to me that pops from the equator consume the same amount of heating that Europeans pops do in the north regardless of location and latitude.
These both seem like very good ideas to me, but they look like a lot of work, so they are best saved for patch cycles in the distant future. I think the game has bigger areas they need attention first, in particular naval warfare and a Cabinet system.
On the topic of harvesting and pops starving, could we change the Banana Republic government name localization to require being a type of subject? Kinda weird seeing that moniker crop up in independent great powers when those were historically foreign influenced subject-esque governments
I'm not convinced about this, because as you say, they are "subject-esque" governments. Being de jure independent, even though they were de facto dominated by foreigners, is important to the Banana Republic status. And a key point is that they were controlled by corporate, not state, interests. That's something that it should be possible to simulate very accurately through V3's Companies feature. So I think making them formal subjects would be an abstraction too far in this game. And if in-game subject status is applied to Banana Republics, then it should also be applied to the British informal empire in Argentina and the Yangtze valley, which would be even more controversial.
I assume this means the world will become even more unstable, and civil wars spam will be even more annoying. As its good change, without reworking radicals, itll bring more frustration.
But radicals are being reworked in this patch cycle; see the last two Dev Diaries.
Is there any chance we can build granaries to prevent the great famine?
The game's economy has no concept of stockpiling goods and that is fundamental to its design. So I greatly doubt this would happen. I can see it's a major departure from reality, but I don't want the devs investing a lot of effort into rewriting the economy system if it can be avoided.
 
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Very cool Update!
Will the Weather effects/Harvest events affect the existing state modifiers?
For example replacing the agriculture bonus of some rivers with a higher chance of a yearly "good flood" event that gives agriculture bonus?
 
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A drought will never happen in a state affected by a flood, nor will a flood happen in a state with a drought.
It is actually possible to deal with both in the same area. We had lot and lots of rain upstream that caused one of the 2 local rivers to flood for a summer (yay dams) but we received much, much less rainfall further downstream.

I think it's the right choice in game, just wanted to throw it out there.
 
how will the game represent famines that occur during times of plenty, in provinces exporting food to the 'home market' aka irish famine and indian famines
 
Theres a lot about just food in here, will there be any plans for weather conditions to effect other RGOs and industries such as earthquakes harming mining operations or bad storms raising the mortality of fishermen and whalers?
 
Can I make people starve less by taking away their dining chairs? N-No, hold on, I seriously mean it.

If a poor pop spends majority of their money satisfying their food need, then they are starving, but if I close all the furniture factories, only plant fancy trees, and switch all clothes production to handkerchiefs for the bourgeoisie, will they now have to pay so much for everything else, that their food need will drop to like 20%, and they'll forget they were hungry, or is it always base price?
No, its compared against base price, though increasing prices for other goods would drop their SOL and likely increase the share of base food, so actually its technically yes?
 
Petition for pops at a ridiculously high wealth like 50+ to have permanently 100% food security for reasons such as (but not limited to):
- Drinking fine wine and eating sugar to the point they survive on carbs and alcohol alone
- Having one last meal with their servants (the servants are the meal)
- Stealing candy from children
 
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I was only half joking about that last one since I do think there should be some way out for the ultra rich, perhaps instant mass migration when they're truly starving or just assuming they're getting their food from "somewhere".

Another consideration is putting certain food-like items such as wine, liquor and sugar (which is only a luxury food not basic) as usable for food substitution but with very low weight. So that in event of starvation even the price of wine skyrockets as peasants would rather pay that kind of money for something that might only be 50% or even 25% as filling per pound as grain.
 
Also please make it so that people consume meat when they're starving. I only play Spain and I got meat off my ears but nobody buys it! If something happens and I fail to provide enough grain for my pops I just want to make them eat meat off my hands for a change!
 
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Also the sugar, I got so much spare sugar that it should be at least partly filling in case of starvation like overpriced (unhealthy) grain or something. Food of last resort if you will. Also liquor since my food industries produce way too much of it anyways and nobody buys it. Alcohol provides calories just like protein/fat/carbs so it should keep them at least from fully starving (google it, it's 7 whole calories per gram, almost as much as fat!).
 
Plus certain clever players could do a "drunk dwarf" playthrough or something where everyone's getting nearly all their basic food from liquor. This is obviously not realistic but I can see how easily could an arrangement where liquor was usable as basic food as meal-of-last-resort could lead to this kind of meme playthrough. Think of the youtubers as well! Or just make it so that liquor can only replace like 25% of their meals as meal-of-last-resort, but that's better than 0% and would be realistic if I have way too many food industries around!