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Tinto Talks #34 - 23rd of October 2024

Hello and Welcome to another Tinto Talk, where we spill information about our entirely secret unannounced game with the codename Project Caesar.

This week we will talk about how slavery works in this game.

Slave Pops
One of the six types of pops we have are the slaves. These lack pretty much every right in all countries, and are simply exploited. They are not allowed to move around on their own, they have harsh enough lives that they are basically only keeping the current population levels at best of times, and they have absolutely no income nor any political power. If they get any sort of literacy they are very likely to be rather upset. At the start of the game the usage of slaves is mostly gone from Europe, but it's more prevalent in other parts of the world.


slaves_cairo.png

Part of the slaves in Cairo at the start..

Usage of Slaves
Slaves are primarily used in resource gathering operations, but they can also be used in various buildings. These types of buildings can be categorized into two types of buildings.

First we have the slave-soldier buildings that require slaves to function, and produce manpower or sailors. These include buildings like mamluk or janissary barracks that provide a part of the armies of the Mamluks and Ottomans.

The second category of buildings are the plantations. These are buildings that you can unlock from Age of Discovery advances. There are three types of plantations, for sugar, tobacco and cotton. These are far more productive than the RGO for the same goods, but require slaves to function.

galley_barracks.png

One unique building to get you a lot of sailors.

Of course there are other uses for Slaves. In some religions you need a steady stream of them to sacrifice daily to make the Sun go up the next day.


Acquiring Slaves
There are multiple ways to get slaves.

First of all you have the classic way of conquering nearby territories and enslaving part of the population as you sack their cities. This is something that as diverse cultures as amongst others, the Haudenosaunee, Aztec and the Kanem Empire can do from the start. They also get easy access to casus belli to go on slave raiding wars. As you sack a city, a percentage of the population will become slaves and appear in the closest slave market you have, and if none is near enough, then to the closest slave market nearby.

Secondly, we have the Berber States, who engaged in slave raiding from the sea. In Eu4, this was a button you clicked on your ships when they were near a coast that had no slave-raiding-cooldown active. In Project Caesar this ability is a part of the privateering mechanic, in that if you have access to this ability, then your privateers will raid a random coastal location in the area they are in, and take some of the pops as slaves for the closest slave market. This is stopped by having a truce, above 100 opinion, or a good old coastal fortress.

slave_raiding.png

Morocco is one of the countries that can do this from day 1.

Thirdly, you have the Slave Market Building. While it acts as a hub for slave trades, it will also try to enslave pops of non accepted cultures, and different religious groups. This is to simulate how the Delhi Sultanate and others enslaved people in their conquered lands over time.

slave_market.png

It all adds up over time..

Fourthly, you have the possibility to build slave centers in foreign locations that have less power projection than you. This is to simulate part of how the Europeans got their slaves from West Africa to the New World. While a significant part of slaves were bought from other African Kingdoms that were willing to sell slaves taken from their enemies, they were also locally captured by the slavers themselves near their slaving centers. If you wish to fight this in your territories, you need to go to war and forcefully expel them.

Finally, you can trade for slaves. In Project Caesar, slaves exist both as a type of goods and as a type of pop, and they are slightly linked. Buildings can produce slave goods and require slave goods as input. When a slave goods is traded between markets, the game will also move pops in relative sizes to locations that have a demand for slaves.

Thus, if you have buildings or resource gathering operations that can use slaves, they will create a demand for slaves in the market, and if you trade from a market that both produces slave goods and has enough slaves present, the game will move about 200 pops from the slave market each month for each good you trade.

At the start of the game there is the Trans-Saharan trade, where northern african countries import slaves from West Africa, many sold by the Kanem Empire.

Later on, during the Age of Discovery, you will see the triangular trade between Europe, West Africa & Americas, which will reduce the Trans Saharan trade volumes.

There is also another market system, as the Mongol States have access to taking slaves when conquering land, and they created the greatest slave trading network the world has ever seen. Since Muslim states could not keep muslim slaves, and christians did not want christian slaves, the Mongols traded the muslims to the christians and the christians to the muslim countries. The trade links from India goes to central asia as well, as Delhi trades their slaves to other markets, while they get the slaves they require for their mamluk-style armies.



Stay tuned as next week we’ll talk about Great Powers and Hegemonies..
 
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How about Chinese eunuchs?
Not the eunuchs part(IMO this can simply be abstracted, they wouldn't be "slave" pops regardless) but for China since it's not mentioned, this is a good question actually, how would slaves in China be handled? When reading up on China you could almost be forgiven for thinking Slavery wasn't a thing but then all of a sudden you come across a passage that mentions them nonchalantly. I feel like in general slavery in china is not really talked about(also makes the whole "no slaves of primary culture" thing ridiculous now that I think about it, debt slavery of peasants was common throughout asia and what is that if not primary culture slavery? Maybe it can be represented as serfdom instead or something, IDK).
 
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Paradox introduced in the span of a week racism mechanics in Victoria 3, mechanics por Nazi Germany in HOI4 and slavery mechanics for PC/EU5 XD
 
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Can slaves rise to a position of power and "become" characters like the various ottoman viziers who were janissaries slave soldiers at first or Hurrem sultan who was a slave that became the sultan legal wife?
 
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For raids in the Americas (especially the Haudenosaunee), will there be ways to represent slave raids increasing as European settlement and diseases causes native populations to decline? Historically small-scale raids were common but they dramatically increased in volume and scale in the 16th/17th centuries as a way to address declining populations (and to sell slaves to European settlers in exchange for goods) and that was what spurred on large conquests. Especially as raiding seems to be tied to conquering land, the Haudenosaunee should not be conquering vast tracts of territory for slaves in 1337. I don't want a repeat of EU4's Iroquois owning half the northeast before any Europeans show up.
 
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If I understand the Slave Market correctly, you need slaves to make slaves... also if it creates pop out of thin air, is there a way then to make popluation boom with that, by buying slaves to free in your land but not stopping foreign slavery?

It takes other pops and makes them into slaves.
 
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Not the eunuchs part(IMO this can simply be abstracted, they wouldn't be "slave" pops regardless) but for China since it's not mentioned, this is a good question actually, how would slaves in China be handled? When reading up on China you could almost be forgiven for thinking Slavery wasn't a thing but then all of a sudden you come across a passage that mentions them nonchalantly. I feel like in general slavery in china is not really talked about(also makes the whole "no slaves of primary culture" thing ridiculous now that I think about it, debt slavery of peasants was common throughout asia and what is that if not primary culture slavery? Maybe it can be represented as serfdom instead or something, IDK).
China under the rule of the Mongol Empire was an era of slavery revival. Slaves were mainly owned by high-ranking ruling groups such as Mongols and Central Asians, and used to handle household chores, cultivate the land, or make handicrafts. Some Han nobles also had slaves, but the number was much smaller than that of the Mongols.

These slaves were mainly prisoners of war obtained by the Mongols during their conquest of China, and were called Qukou, which means herded mouths.
Interestingly, some low-ranking Mongols were also sold outside the Mongol Empire, so that the Mongol Khan had to pay to buy them back.
According to Zhao Huafu (1984), the Mongol Empire (Yuan) should have had 10 million slaves, 50% of whom were serfs.
 
Would there a possibility to make a nation only consisting with Slaves, Slave nation pretty much?
On top of that then having a possibility to "recruit" more slaves by using the many mechanics of obtaining slaves?
Would give very interesting gameplay.

Not sure how a nation with only slaves would work.
 
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This week we get slavery, and then Korea and Japan?
It feels like I'm getting personally spoiled!

Since Muslim states could not keep muslim slaves, and christians did not want christian slaves, the Mongols traded the muslims to the christians and the christians to the muslim countries.
Unfathomably based Mongols.

 
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Also, regarding that art for Slave pops, they seem kinda... y'know... yassified. Surely they should be a bit more dirty/emaciated?
Those are fresh slaves from their village.

I'm surprised you decided to tackle this issue. I thought it was a no no.
Not representing slavery in a game with social and trade mecanics when the triangular trade was happening would be bleaching history.
 
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They can be working in special buildings for admin yes..
But don't you think having also a slave estate would give PC the tools to portray, for example, the specific challenges and power struggles happening in Islamic nations that use slaves as soldiers, officers and administrators ?
What made you choose to not portray it as an estate ?
You can't ever enslave same cultute pops.
Is there a reason for this limit?
 
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1. Will indentured peasants be also represented as slaves?
2. Most European countries didn't officially allow for slavery before the discovery of America, will this be represented?
3. Is a law "children of slaves become free" in the game? It operated like this in some places
4. Can an attempt at abolition trigger a civil war (look at the US)
5. Will abolition be instantaneous?
6. If you don't practice slavery, will you free all the slaves upon getting some in your lands?
7. Will a division between slave and free states be able to be implemented?
8. Can slaves start a slave revolt? If yes, what will happen if they win?
9. Slave economies were ultimatelly not very competetive nor productive, especially once industrialisation showed up .Will this lower output be represented?
10. It's kinda werid that the African slaves are represented by an icon of two white people - but having the slaves be the only POPs that are black would be ever worse - did you think about having the POP icons be different depending on their ethnicity (similiar to EU4 advisor portraits)?

1 - no
2 - yes
3 - no
4 - its out of the time frame
5 - yes
6 - yes
7 - not sure about your question?
8 - yes, no more slavery
9 - before industrialisation, slavery was not exaclty non-competetive.
10 - we talked about this, and one day we will have ethnic differences on poptype icons.
 
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Would there a possibility to make a nation only consisting with Slaves, Slave nation pretty much?
On top of that then havin a possibility to "recruit" more slaves by using the many mechanics of obtaining slaves?
Would give very interesting gameplay.
Slave Nation?
Thats bad idea. When they rule nation then aint slaves anymore right
Or you mean all slaves are equal but some slaves are more equal than others
Politically it would have hard times getting any relations with other TAGS

I dont know how you even play this. Like revolition and liberation CB against all slave owners? And you still are slaves not Free People Republic for example?
Totally unnecessary IMHO
 
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