Tinto Maps #26 - 15th of November 2024 - Indonesia

[blue0china]

May I ask, after China is conquered by the Manchus or another foreign power, would there be a significant wave of migration to Southeast Asia? Would communities formed by these migrants and their descendants, including merchants, be represented in the game as Societies of Pops?

 

[Javilos Septim]

I wonder, was there any real divide between Buddhists and Hindus in Indonesia (inc. Malaysia and Philippines)? Or were they pretty much mixed? I imagine some peoples and States might have leaned more towards one or another, but the total divide between Sumatra+Malay penninsula and Java+Borneo seems too radical, doesn't it? Maybe as part of the dividing of the Mahayana you could make a special Hindu+Buddhist denomination for Indonesia and Philippines? IDK which could be the name, as Indonesian Hindu-Buddhism doesn't look very appealing...

 

[SupremTurtle]

May I ask, after China is conquered by the Manchus or another foreign power, would there be a significant wave of migration to Southeast Asia? Would communities formed by these migrants and their descendants, including merchants, be represented in the game as Societies of Pops?

Historically speaking, it was the Ming dynasty were there was a large number of Chinese immigrants to Southeast Asia. There were some immigrants during the Qing conquest of China, although the numbers dwindled after the country was more stable and the Qing dynasty have more control over the ports. That doesn't mean there weren't any immigrants, but it shouldn't be considered "significant". Significant wave of migration occured only after the opium war, and the majoirty of Southeast Asian Chinese today are of this origin.
I don't believe societies of pops would be a good representation, as sop is supposed to represent peoples who are not administrated by a centralized state. The Chinese that arrived during the time period were definitely under the administartion of local sultans, kings, and chieftains. For example, when Sir Raffles, purchased Singapore from the sultan of Malacca, there were a two communities of Chinese and Malays, and both were under the authority of the sultan.
Chinese in Southeast Asia is often compared to Jews in Europe, as in they are a minority with more wealth than the average population, but neither of both groups were outside of legal jursidiction. There is no reason that they should somehow form societies of pops.

 

[red_jars]

Great map, I'd like to offer some feedback for the Philippines in particular:

- The Lake Taal was actually connected to the sea until the 1754 eruption. That means that in game, the province of Bay would have sea access

- As I wrote earlier, the Big Tondo that stretches all the way to Bicol was never a historical fact at all. I'd make it way, way smaller, chopping off its Pacific coast access at the very least. In fact, all states on the map would be much smaller (the Filipino interior was pretty empty as most of the inhabitants were seafaring people, and Tondo and Caboloan probably never bordered each other) but for the sake of gameplay, we can have them bordering. It its place, you could add a Society of Bicolano pops.

- It's good that you decided to hedge on Ma-i's location since there's a dispute over whether it was in Laguna (Bay) or Mindoro (Mait), props for that

- I would split Maynila into two provinces, the northern one covering present-day Metro Manila and the southern one covering present-day Cavite/Kawit, or, in precolonial times, Tangway. It was Cavite, not Manila that was the ground zero for the galleon trade and an important entrepôt and naval base for Spain, which IMO warrants inclusion as its own province.

- Sandao, which ruled around northern Palawan, should probably be part of / a tributary of Ma-I as per the Chinese records.

- According to the Chinese, Sanmalan had already morphed into "Shahuagong" by the 1200s, now a slave-raiding, piratical state. Although they're most probably describing the Balanguigui people rather than the Subanon, who were known to do that and eventually joined the Sulu Sultans to do some more raiding.

- Ilocos pops should be renamed to Samtoy pops, since that's what they called themselves before the Spanish era

- A society of Maranao pops perhaps? They would eventually go on to form the Lanao Confederacy after seceding from Maguindanao.

- After around the 1350s, the Kilman tribe would begin the Rajahnate of Buayan, converting to Islam in the 1390s and eventually establishing a rival sultanate to Maguindanao that would last until the 1900s. It may be too much to ask, but an event about the formation of Buayan would be appreciated.

- Lupah Sug didn't have control over Basilan Island/Taguima, which had their own kingdom known as Kumalarang, listed in the Ming records. If you don't want to add a tiny OPM, you can just set it as uncontrolled

Locations
- Renaming of Cabagbagototan/San Esteban to Kandong/Candong as it is 1) larger and 2) has a better-recorded pre-colonial history
- Renaming of Vigan to Bigan, which is what the earliest Spanish texts called it
- Renaming of Laillo to Lal-lo, which is the actual name of the town
- Renaming of Tabuk to Tobog, which was the original name of the area
- Renaming of Lagawe to Kiyyangan/Kiangan, which is right next door and was an important site for the Ifugao people
- Renaming of Binawangan to Kapulungan/Capalonga, which is the larger town that Binawangan is under
- Renaming of Himoragat to Naga (Himoragat is a river and Naga is the actual city)
- Renaming of Virac to Vidak (original name)
- Renaming of Mangarin to Bulalacao (the other candidate for the capital of Ma-i, after Bay)
- Renaming of Marakato to Makarato (you misspelled Laoang's old name, which is why I got surprised when anime girls popped up in the search results lol)
- Renaming of Baybay to Pangasugan (original name before miscommunication with Spanish resulted in them renaming the town)
- Renaming of Sinugbohan to Irong-Irong, forerunner of modern Iloilo and one of the capitals of Madja-as
- Renaming of Aklan to Madyanos, another capital of Madja-as
- Renaming of Mainit to Cabadbaran (bigger city, and Mainit didn't exist until the 20th century)
- Renaming of Lianga to Langan (original name)
- Renaming of Linao to Bislig (only Linao I could find in the area is several dozen kms inland of the province location)
- Renaming of Davao to Tagloc (old name of Davao)
- Renaming of Datu Piang to Buayan (Datu Piang lived in the 1800s, way out of EU5's timeframe. Yes, that means there will be two Buayans: you could alternatively name it to Rajah Buayan as it was the capital of the Buayan Rajahnate)

Provinces
I'm gonna be honest, I almost gave up here lol. Those Luzon borders made me want to cry

- Slight adjustment of Ilocos' borders north at Upper Cagayan's expense to bring it more in line with real life borders
- Speaking of Upper Cagayan, we can now merge it with Mid Cagayan
- All this is to make space for a new, landlocked province for the Cordillera area, which never really got fully colonized by Spain.
- In the meantime, let's rename Ilocos to Samtoy
- Pampanga in the pre-colonial era used to be huge. And by huge, I mean most of Central Luzon huge. I brought back those borders, deprecating both Tondo and Pantabangan in the process.
- Maynila annexes the leftovers of Tondo and Pantabangan to make a new Katagalugan province
- Mindoro's old name was either Minolo or Mait
- Davao name change to Tagloc

Other
- I highly, highly doubt Ilocano was spoken in Mindoro. Spanish accounts from the earliest days already record significant penetration of Tagalog into the island, so it can be shown as Tagalog-speaking.
- There should be much less Bisaya spoken in Mindanao; much of the Bisayan migration came about during or after the Spanish era as an attempt to Christianize the island
- Slight adjustment of Kapampangan cultural borders: it should be a majority in Bayambang instead of Pangasinan
- You guys did your homework on natural resources, you even got the marble in Romblon and the gold mines in Paracale right! Although I do think there should be some more gold in the Butuan area. Hopefully I can plant loads of cash crops like tobacco and sugar as the game goes on...

I'll leave the rest, like religions and such, to more knowledgable people. Cheers!

 

[Kvesir]

2. Not anything specific yet afaik

Regarding the spread of Islam in Indonesia, perhaps a global solution for this can be implemented (if it wasn't implemented already) in the form of Sufi orders being an estate. Sufis in this period were spreading independently in many regions of the world, including in non-Muslim Indonesia, and they were instrumental in converting the population of Indonesia and various other regions to Islam (in the Middle East as well). So you could have Sufis be an estate that is unlocked based on a country's religion being Animist or Muslim ("Animist" being a label for all of those tiny religions) as well as being in a relevant region. The estate would build their own mosques/"sufi lodges" that would convert the population.

Ideally I'd say that it should be influenced by the amount of trade done by Muslim countries in a given trade node, and that if such trade is high enough for Sufis to spawn it would also allow local rulers to convert to Islam. This can also be applied to Africa, the Middle East and maybe even India.

Edit: or even better, they can be building-based countries!

 

[nyetflix2]

They are seeds of the Cola plant. They also had a fairly minor economic role outside of West Africa until the 1800s, so they'd be best served by being in the least sought-after group. I'd say they're a seed spice,if they are shown to have enough of an economic impact to actually be the main export of a location.

(Edit: This is if they have to be in the category of spice at all, which I don't think they do - see my comment below)

Makes sense, I think there are some locations that would have it.

 

[nyetflix2]

Regarding the spread of Islam in Indonesia, perhaps a global solution for this can be implemented (if it wasn't implemented already) in the form of Sufi orders being an estate. Sufis in this period were spreading independently in many regions of the world, including in non-Muslim Indonesia, and they were instrumental in converting the population of Indonesia and various other regions to Islam (in the Middle East as well). So you could have Sufis be an estate that is unlocked based on a country's religion being Animist or Muslim ("Animist" being a label for all of those tiny religions) as well as being in a relevant region. The estate would build their own mosques/"sufi lodges" that would convert the population.

Ideally I'd say that it should be influenced by the amount of trade done by Muslim countries in a given trade node, and that if such trade is high enough for Sufis to spawn it would also allow local rulers to convert to Islam. This can also be applied to Africa, the Middle East and maybe even India.

Maybe building based countries instead of estates?

 

[blue0china]

Historically speaking, it was the Ming dynasty were there was a large number of Chinese immigrants to Southeast Asia. There were some immigrants during the Qing conquest of China, although the numbers dwindled after the country was more stable and the Qing dynasty have more control over the ports. That doesn't mean there weren't any immigrants, but it shouldn't be considered "significant". Significant wave of migration occured only after the opium war, and the majoirty of Southeast Asian Chinese today are of this origin.
I don't believe societies of pops would be a good representation, as sop is supposed to represent peoples who are not administrated by a centralized state. The Chinese that arrived during the time period were definitely under the administartion of local sultans, kings, and chieftains. For example, when Sir Raffles, purchased Singapore from the sultan of Malacca, there were a two communities of Chinese and Malays, and both were under the authority of the sultan.
Chinese in Southeast Asia is often compared to Jews in Europe, as in they are a minority with more wealth than the average population, but neither of both groups were outside of legal jursidiction. There is no reason that they should somehow form societies of pops.

I believe that while the Chinese in Southeast Asia were subject to local monarchs, they also maintained relatively independent communities with their own leaders. If they are represented in the game merely as a minority group, it might be difficult to capture this aspect. The rise of the Lanfang Republic during the mid-Qing dynasty and the Kapitan Cina system in the Malay Peninsula are notable examples. Personally, I am very curious whether the game might reflect the unique role played by the local Chinese during the process of Western colonisation in Southeast Asia.

 

[ibvfteh]

Having spices as one or multiple resources is something that has been appearing in discussions now and again. Having them grouped was better for some aspects of the gameplay, but as always, everything is still subject to change.

How about making European, Asian, Indonesian or some other types/categories of spices? Grouping them up into clusters of mixed spices rather than individual. And make pops demand at least one (if this is possible) and if others have been introduced in the market create a need for the new spice type in elites.

I am no expert but something like Bumbu can be used as a general term for Indonesian spices (mix of them). Masala for Indian, Baharat for Arabic

Sounds like the best solution in my ears

it will still retain a generality of spice, but also will have flavour to it.

The gameplay reason is exactly the same, Europe should buy spices from around the world at gigantic prices. Split by region will force them to trade with every region of the world to satisfy their needs

EDIT: I have been converted to the side of Flower_Marlin

 

[tpapp157]

Honestly if you guys do go for the split of spices you can easily represent them by breaking up into 3 groups: Seed spices (fennel, coriander, cumin etc.) would be more common, bark spices (cinammon and cassia) spread them across southern India and Indonesia, and fruit spices (black pepper, long pepper, & cardamom) which would be rare and highly sought after.

Cloves & Saffron can be their own thing with a very high base price range (similar to cloves in EU4) and the cloves would be found in the far moluccas and Coromandel coast and drive gameplay for the spice trade routes.

Similarly Vanilla, Chile peppers and Cocoa can be their own thing and drive colonization of the new World.

EDIT: Saffron could be in a very few locations of persia, kashmir valley, andalusia and so on...

I would also include some representation of Cinchona bark in Peru/Ecuador as it was extremely important in this time period.

 

[Thorum]

Sounds like the best solution in my ears

Apart from flavour, what would be the point in splitting geographically?

Yes, they should be split, but for actual gameplay reasons. Which is where "type of spice" as proposed by flower_marlins post scores a lot better. Especially if you add a very select few to give certain areas their historical significance (read: cloves).

I would also include some representation of Cinchona bark

Cinchona bark falls nicely in the category "barks", no? - edit: except it's apparently the natural source of kinine, so it isn't even a spice but a medicament.

 

[ArVass]

I'm going to pretend to be @ArVass today and ask,

Can we have a towns and cities mapmode?

You are doing God's work

 

[fireduck]

Dynasties
View attachment 1214363
Not much to say here, as much of the dynasties are generated due to the lack of data. Notable exceptions to that are, of course, the Rajasa dynasty of Majapahit and the Mauli dynasty of the Melayu kingdom.

I can't tell due to the zoom, but does Cebu still have the Chola dynasty?

 

[tpapp157]

Cinchona bark falls nicely in the category "barks", no? - edit: except it's apparently the natural source of kinine, so it isn't even a spice but a medicament.

Yes. The discovery and harvesting of Cinchona bark for Quinine was a major driver of exploration, colonization, and competition in the Andean mountains. The fact that Quinine could help prevent malaria turned it into a major driver of global colonization and Cinchona would eventually become a huge cash crop in the Dutch East Indies. While not a spice in the culinary sense, from a trade and production mechanics perspective that's what it most closely resembles.

 

[Paulatim]

Honestly I don't think the Kola nut was traded enough to be represented by a good and they don't really fit the definition of a spice in either usage, expense or trade importance. (I was really answering that if it had to be a spice, that's what it would be in that categorization - which I should have made clearer) I could be proven wrong about its suitability as a spice or good if someone can dig up some information about it being a major economic player globally, and staple import. There are thousands of crops not being represented due to not being globally traded, and I'd much sooner something like cassava be represented in game than Kola nuts.

That said, a regional spice system totally misses any granularity as both the highest and lowest valued spices in a region would be one good and share a price despite really not having the same demand. Something particularly egregious in Indonesia and India where both fairly common and highly valuable spices would be under a single umbrella, making it no different to having one spice, so far as the region is concerned.

For example, if you play in Indonesia with a regional spice system, owning the spice nodes of the Moluccas with the incredibly valuable nutmeg and cloves would have exactly the same value potential as the same number of regions growing a much less valuable spice. Using a typed spice system will allow for differentiation in price and value even within those regions.

It's also a lot more goods than a spice type system per the above suggestion. At that point it would be better to just represent the most important spices individually and as the Developers have mentioned, they want it abstracted into as few goods as possible - something I agree with for the most part. I think three spices gives enough granularity in price and demand while not making it too complex to use mechanically for things that cost spices.

The best African sourced spice I can think of, especially for the period is melegueta pepper, which does fit the fruit-spice category perfectly, allowing African regions compete for the pepper trade as it did historically. It was traded as far away as Italy and gave the Grain Coast its name. (It's also called the Grain of Paradise, if you're wondering.)

I think this is getting fairly off topic for the region, though.

When I have access to fruit spices in india, why should I go to west africa or mexico? The rationale beyond the whole discussion is about the uneven geographical distribution of spices, hence the geographical differentiation. A solution might be to simply give a bunch of historically important spices their geographical distribution, while keeping the less important ones in the broad category of spices. The developers would choose how many individual spices to represent to get a balanced and historically sound gameplay.

When I first asked this question in the anatolian tinto maps, they explicitly told me it would be better to address this on the Indonesia tinto maps, so it is not off topic at all.

 

[mattd_]

Looks like @red_jars might have slightly beaten me to it, but quite a few changes I would make to the political map in the Philippines (mostly Tondo being cut back, especially in this era.)

New Countries:
- Kiliman (later Buayan)
- Lanao
- Ibalon (arguably shown a bit too powerful here and was a lot more decentralised and i believe mostly focused on the east coast)
- Pulilu
- Sandao - tribute to Ma-i
- Taytay - could also be tribute to Ma-i?
- Mariete
- Samtoy (though arguably could be an SOP as quite decentralised, were very active trading partners with China)
- Lawan (could also be an SOP as somewhat decentralised)

And some new SOP's:
- Ijang (on the Batanes and Babuyan islands north of Luzon - arguably could be a full country as they did a lot of trade with China)
- Taybas
- Bukidon

 

[Paulatim]

Yes. The discovery and harvesting of Cinchona bark for Quinine was a major driver of exploration, colonization, and competition in the Andean mountains. The fact that Quinine could help prevent malaria turned it into a major driver of global colonization and Cinchona would eventually become a huge cash crop in the Dutch East Indies. While not a spice in the culinary sense, from a trade and production mechanics perspective that's what it most closely resembles.

So the incas could have an important role in the cinnamon trade... interesting

 

[Paulatim]

How about making European, Asian, Indonesian or some other types/categories of spices? Grouping them up into clusters of mixed spices rather than individual. And make pops demand at least one (if this is possible) and if others have been introduced in the market create a need for the new spice type in elites.

I am no expert but something like Bumbu can be used as a general term for Indonesian spices (mix of them). Masala for Indian, Baharat for Arabic

Sounds like the best solution in my ears

I suggested this in the anatolian tinto maps, but people keep saying it is bad without properly explaining.

 

[ibvfteh]

Apart from flavour, what would be the point in splitting geographically?

Yes, they should be split, but for actual gameplay reasons. Which is where "type of spice" as proposed by flower_marlins post scores a lot better. Especially if you add a very select few to give certain areas their historical significance (read: cloves).


Cinchona bark falls nicely in the category "barks", no? - edit: except it's apparently the natural source of kinine, so it isn't even a spice but a medicament.

it will still retain a generality of spice, but also will have flavour to it.

The gameplay reason is exactly the same, Europe should buy spices from around the world at gigantic prices. Split by region will force them to trade with every region of the world to satisfy their needs

 

[SupBros]

I would be SHOCKED if next weeks map didn't include Australia, it would be the biggest surprise yet (including every Tinto Talks/Maps) by a wide margin. Oceania IS Australia, if they wanted to exclude it they would've said "the map of the Pacific archipelago".

Just one Tinto Maps left until we reach the Americas. I honestly can't wait for it lol