Tinto Maps #28 - 29th of November 2024 - North America

[caver434]

No, that's why it doesn't extend so far.

There really needs to be some representation for the west coast tribes, atleast SOP's. But i think there is a strong argument for settled nations. They where largely settled in one location, had rigid social hierarchys, and where densely populated.

 

[Rycestealer]

The SoP on the Northwest Coast? Chinook, Salish, Haida and others. It doesn't seem to be shown.

Yakama to

 

[Dimo87]

I would much rather have areas based off geography as it feels way more natural. The states in the US could have gone a million different ways as far as borders, numbers of states, and names go.

While I don't think the nations that eventually made up the Haudenosaunee would be considered settled in 1337 it's a really huge shame that you can't make the transition in a playthrough. They are one of my favorites to play in EU4. In fact, not having SOPs playing in America really does remove one of what I think is one of the most fun player fantasies of resisting the colonial powers.

 

[Desert Duke]

Having impassible regions in the Ozarks seems a bit odd. Like, yes, is comparatively rugged, but if that’s impassible, then so should most of, say, Macedonia, or other forested, mountainous regions. Maybe someone from the Ozarks disagrees, but it’s just an observation. Like, you don’t have to take mountain passes through the Ozarks, it’s more rolling hills.

 

[theolaa]

My vote is for geographical-based area names rather than names based on modern states. I prefer the natural looking borders rather than straight lines, and it's more friendly to alternative history.

 

[Atromb]

True... Should we make a 'Georgia on my Mind 3.0'?

This time make it so that the player tag has to be Georgia.

 

[Tiwaz4]

As long as the provinces follow the 13 colonies, I'm fine with geographic areas. My main priority is making sure the british colonial borders pre-revolution are possible, as if colonial nations are in the game, (and they currently are), then each colony should be it's own tag. The colonies acted independent of eachother, and pretty much all of the inter-colony cooperation came about as a result of the continental congress.

Ideally, provinces and areas would be fully dynamic, which I think is the issue with this whole discussion. If, during the game, england could say, "these locations make up the province of east jersey" and reorganize the province setup, allowing the lenape to have their own province setup, that would be perfect and this whole discussion would be moot.

Also, +1 for Etowah as a settled country. Also also, from my (independent) research, it seems like the Natchez were pretty well settled, so you could make a case for them existing as city states along the mississippi.
Haudenosaunee also definitely existed by this point, so if they are an IO or whatever they should be represented. I'd also argue for them being settled countries as well for the most part.

ALso, surely the Micmac should at least exist as a SOP? This is a map of the Wabanaki Confederacy. It's far after the start of the game, but the region should generally be similar.
View attachment 1223784

Yeah, the Mi'kmaq should definitely at least be an SoP. I kind of assumed they were already. If not, they should be.

 

[kagami1999]

No SOPs in the Pacific Northwest or Alaska? Really???

 

[honkajoki]

And yes, we'd like to portray the decline of Cahokia on a certain way, although it would be tricky without proper playable SoP mechanics.

2. Very likely we won't have that by release.

That's a big challenge for us at this moment, to be honest. That's why we're being extra cautious with everything SoP-related.

We have a design in mind, but again, we're not sure if that would be in the release version of the game.

Surely you can put in anything you want before release, as the release date hasn't been decided yet. Just postpone the release until all the important things, like the ability to play any tag, including SoPs, is in the game.

Or have you already decided a release date, fixed it so that there's no way to alter it. If so, why not share the date?

 

[AntarcticRanger]

Also, Texas is definitely not that flat. Should reflect the Edwards Plateau in the middle there.

For that matter, texas hill country is not grassland, it is very much woods

 

[ParadoInk]

Amazing map, and I hope I do not come across as combative. The work put in is incredible and I am just very passionate about this one nit-pick.

My piece of feedback is that Philadelphia (Shackamaxon) should probably be a better natural harbor. It is admittedly a little tricky, as the natural harbor bonuses (as most recently seen) give both disembark time modifiers, and dock/shipyard modifiers. The first does not apply to Philadelphia, as the port certainly took extra time to get to with delays in the Delaware. However, Philadelphia was a major shipyard, achieving the biggest port city in the 13 colonies for much of the game's time period. According to Dorwart, Philadelphia saw shipyards take off from the 1670s, with Swedish settlers having built ships in the Delaware 3 decades earlier. Heinrich explains that shipbuilding became Philadelphia's "stronghold" in the 1690s, and by 1700 the city had overtaken Boston for the title of leading port city.

Economic and political factors may have played some role, but natural and geographic advantages were significant as well. Philadelphia's population was less than 1/3rd of Boston's in 1690 (~2000 vs. ~7000) and the colony populations are similar (~20,000 PA+NJ, vs ~50,000 MA). Philadelphia's position along the Delaware must have been naturally suitable for docks and shipyards. If the London's River Thames port is given a natural harbor suitability of seemingly ~55%(?), it seems reasonable Philadelphia's Delaware river port should have one of at least 30%. A compromise does have to be made between the Disembark modifiers and the Shipyard/Dock modifiers, but right now it seems far too dominated by the former and is not considering the latter.

Sources:
Jeffery M. Dorwart, "Shipbuilding and Shipyards". Not scholarly but written by a Professor of History at Rutgers University, with a focus on maritime history.

Thomas Heinrich, Ships for the Seven Seas: Philadelphia Shipbuilding in the Age of Industrial Capitalism

(It seems my account has too few posts to include links. Both sources come up easily in google searches, and the book is available for free on JHU's "Muse" website.)

 

[Cooleatack]

We did some clean-up on the very early design, which had colonial goods, but apparently some were overlooked...

To be entirely clear: what we want on the setup is the raw materials present and exploitable in 1337, while those goods introduced post-Columbian Exchange will appear in the region in a different way (which will be dynamic, not static). On a side note regarding minerals, as we usually put in the map those exploited during the game's timeframe (1337-1837).

Wait is this the first mention of the end year being 1837?

 

[Mef]

Feedback for raw materials in roughly the borders of the Thirteen Colonies

I made a map showing the location of mineral resources in this area:

Here are the details:

Copper:
See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copper_mining_in_the_United_States
Major deposits exploited in the time period were:
Lancaster County, Pennsylvania, location: Tesinigh
East Granby, Connecticut, location: Saukiog
North Arlington, New Jersey, location: Hackensack
Southern Virginia, location: Nessoneick

Tin:
The USA doesn't have any good tin deposits and throughout its history it was always cheaper to just import tin, either from Cornwall or from Asia (e.g. Malaysia).

Lead:
There’s almost no lead in the Eastern US, only in Virginia http://www.virginiaplaces.org/geology/lead.htm
Location: Mahock

Coal:
Plenty of coal here, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_coal_mining_in_the_United_States
Virginia, location Massinacak
Pennsylvania, locations Shamokin and Scahentowanen
Pittsburgh coal seam, out of the scope of the Thirteen Colonies borders but very important, so I drew it as well, locations: Muskingum, Omigohow, Captina, Wihlink, Calicua, Monongahela, Youghiogheny, Allegheny

Saltpeter:
Bartow County, Georgia, location: Talimachusi
Important guano caves (those were a pretty big deal), locations: Weotowe, Quemahoning, Tsonentsiio

Mercury:
Mercury is mostly mined in California - not surprising, considering that its most important application was for gold mining
I don't know of mercury mining on the east coast

Salt:
The colonies famously had a salt shortage during the revolutionary war, as there wasn't really much domestic production of salt, they imported from England and Lisbon
Salt works were hastily set up along the jersey shore during the war blockade but most of them were destroyed
There isn't any rock salt in the eastern US either.
As such, the only salt should be on Jersey Shore and one at the New England coast which did have some salt works.
Locations: Navisink, Kennebunk

Gold:
There were the Carolina gold rush and Georgia gold rush very late in the time period, but I think it makes sense to have no gold at the start here

Silver:
None.

Alum:
No mines here, extensive records of imports from England exist.

Iron:
Plenty of iron available here, and the Thirteen Colonies did have a lot of iron working, although production of finished products like tools was prohibited.

Iron mining in the United States - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The Toncrae deposit near Floyd, Virginia was mined for ironfrom about 1790–1850, location: Mondongachate
Chesapeake bog iron, location: Kiskiack, Patuxent
Lots of iron around in PA, NJ and NY: Paxtang, Hopatcong, Itekiatohniarekon?(can’t really read it)
Massachusetts: Naumkeag
Ironworking was one of the few industries in backcountry South Carolina: Pacolate

Gems:
Couldn’t find any records of production.

Marble:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuckahoe_marble
The only marble here, location: Tappan

Stone:
There are extensive records of quarrying here (including for famous buildings like the White House) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_quarries_in_the_United_States
I added the important ones:
The largest open-face granite quarry on the planet can be found at Mount Airy, North Carolina, known locally as “The Granite City.” The North Carolina Granite Corporation was established in 1743, location: Alamance
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_Quarry_at_Government_Island location: Patawomeck
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quincy_Quarries_Reservation location: Shawmut
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fall_River,_Massachusetts location: Assonet
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seneca_Quarry location: Doeg
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portland_Brownstone_Quarries location: Nehantuk

Clay:
Georgia is by far the leading clay producing state in the US today and has lots of Kaolin deposits
While most of this industry would have been established well after the game's timeframe there is a surviving record of Thomas Griffith, a representative of an English pottery firm, who journeyed into the Cherokee heartland to secure samples of “white burning” clay. Locations: Talimeco, Ocute, Alramaha, Ichisi, Kealedji, Chatahouchee, Wakokai

https://pubs.usgs.gov/bul/0708/report.pdf

This is a big 1922 report about clays in the US.
There were high-grade clay mines at the border between Delaware and Pennsylvania, as well as the southern mountains of PA and Western Virginia (Augusta county), locations: Wallenpauck, Wawassan, Minguannan, Connatachequa, Shinhandowi


I did not make a map for other resources, but some comments on those:
By the time the East Coast was settled, fur trading was done on the periphery. This is mostly correct already.
There can be some dyes here (Baptisia australis), but of course not to the same degree as later indigo production which was one of the most important crops pre-revolution.
The extent of maize into New England may be a bit too generous? I would expect grain production to center around the area of the Middle Colonies, the most fertile land here.
There is way too much tobacco and cotton in my opinion. Both of these were plantation crops that were introduced during colonial times. Cotton was a fringe crop here until the invention of the cotton gin (1793). Native tobacco species were smoked, of course, but their production should be dispersed like in other areas. Concentrated tobacco production in Virginia was a colonial thing (and used a plant from the Caribbean).

Edit: Some more context from statistics here.

Spoiler: The most valuable exports from this area in 1770, in pound sterling:

906638	Tobacco
504553	Bread and flour
397945	Fish
340693	Rice
131552	Indigo
131467	Wheat
128244	Lumber
104134	Whale Products
91486	Furs
67250	Iron
66035	Beef and pork
64661	Potash/Pearlash
60228	Horses
57750	Deer skins
43376	Maize
35299	Flax/Hemp
27888	Pitch/Tar
26589	Naval Supplies
24926	Candles
21836	Rum
16572	Legumes
16503	Barrels
14328	Cattle

Note the absence of cotton before the invention of the cotton gin, also how important basic goods like grain and fish were. The cash crops were tobacco and dyes.

 

[AntarcticRanger]

I agree that California has way too little location density, and in particular i really hope that the Channel Islands become at least one location, it's a travesty that they aren't.

 

[Agricola20]

Some preliminary comments regarding Northern Pennsylvania and the eastern seaboard. I'll provide another more comprehensive comment when I have time.

1. The locations of Scahentowanen, Lackawanna, Shamokin, and Mahoning belong to PA's Anthracite Coal Region, aptly named for the abundance of anthracite coal in the area. The region sits on top the largest anthracite deposit(s) in the world and was critical for the US's early industrial development. I know PDX is adding coal to the map sparingly, but I still would recommend changing the Scahentowanen and Shamokin trade goods to coal at the very least. These two locations contain the earliest records of coal mining in the area, dating to the late 18th century if I remember correctly.

2. I believe "Loyalsock" is in the wrong location. "Loyalsock" is supposedly a corruption of "Lawisoquick" (or something similar) meaning "Middle Creek" due to the creek's location midway between Lycoming Creek and Muncy Creek. The Loyalsock Creek is completely contained in the "Lycoming" location, so some names need to be moved here. I need to do a little more research before offering any suggestions though.

3. I feel the Allegheny Plateau wasteland may be a little too large. Native paths crossed the plateau (usually following river gorges), and several colonial settlements were established paralleling the northern state line in the early 19th century, so there may be potential for a few more locations and/or wasteland crossings here.

4. As others have said, there's a lack of spices and medicaments on the map. On the east coast, Spicebush (Lindera benzoin), Sassafras (Sassafras albidum), Staghorn Sumac (Rhus typhina), American Ginseng (Panax quinquefolius), several plants from the Mint family (Lamiaceae), and other plants were used for their flavor and/or medicinal properties. I don't know of any concentrated areas of production, but a few spice locations and maybe a few more medicament locations should be considered in my opinion.

More feedback will follow later.

 

[VikingNinja]

I found a pair of maps that could be useful, one for the range 1250 - 1300 AD and the other 1400 - 1450 AD. You could try estimating what it would be like in 1337 from them. They're from the article Examining Prehistoric Settlement Distribution in Eastern North America by David G. Anderson.

 

[VoidWarrior]

The Teton people (Lakota, Dakota, etc) start in the Dakotas here in 1337, but they didn't end up there until hundreds of years later, driven west by conflicts with the anishinaabe/creek and the acquisition of horses

 

[Chaostic]

Personally I would say that territory that ended up becoming a official states of the US by the end date of the game should be organized by colonial borders while the rest further west should be geographical.

If this is EU5 and a rather eurocentric game then the colonial powers PoV should take priority over what makes sense for natives who wont be around until the end anyways.

 

[FleetingRain]

True... Should we make a 'Georgia on my Mind 3.0'?

Is Georgia still on your mind? If so, then yes.

 

[AntarcticRanger]

I really want to know what kind of flora qualities somewhere as "jungle" here, as the biggest temperate rainforest in the world is here in the PNW, and it's just forest. Idk, some of the biggest bears in the worlds with some of the biggest trees in the world with all the undergrowth of a rainforest sure sounds like a jungle to me.