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Tinto Talks #42 - 18th of December 2024

Welcome to another Tinto Talks, the happy Wednesday where we give you information about our upcoming super secret game with the codename Project Caesar.

This week we will be talking about the disaster system, which has been present in different forms in recent GSG games from Paradox.

Disasters
There are two major differences between a disaster and a situation. The first is that a disaster is almost always negative, and secondly a disaster is always for a specific country. While multiple situations can be active and involving a country at the same time, only a single disaster can happen at the same time.

There are also two categories of disasters. The specific historical narratives, and the generic ones that can happen to anyone under the right circumstances.

Disasters in Project Caesar are not just a modifier applied to the country, and some events triggering until you fulfill the winning conditions, but you also get unique actions you can do to affect the disaster.

Let's start looking at some common more generic disasters.

Court and Country
Resistance to the growing centralization in our country has culminated in a period of general crisis and conflict between Court and Country. Depending on how we handle this time of crisis we might come out of it a stronger country than before.

This disaster can happen to any country with strong Absolutism or Crown Power in the Age of Absolutism or Age of Revolution.

court_and_country.png

The Nobility has taken the biggest offence to this plan

As you can see above here the UI for this disaster shows your current crown power, and the power of your estates, while also showing the rebel closest to starting a civil war. It also lists the current actions you have in the disaster. Here we cannot rein in the Nobility, as they are too strong already.

Two of the icons above have special tooltips that are useful for you as well.

end_condition.png

You have to endure it for at least a decade..

advice.png

In case you don’t know how to increase crown power..


Religious Turmoil
religious_turmoil.png


Despite the country's efforts to mediate between the different religious groups in our nation, conflicts have been erupting on a regular basis. The situation has worsened and without drastic measures, we will soon be engulfed in a religious civil war.

This disaster can occur during the Age of Reformation for any Catholic country or any country following any Protestant religion, if they have a low enough religious unity and a weak clergy estate.

To get out of this disaster there are multiple ways: get religious unity higher; get the power of the clergy much higher as a spiritualist; or go full humanist, while restoring stability.

While this disaster is happening, there will be a lot of conflict from religious minorities in the country.



If we look into some of the country specific ones, we have a few here, and we don’t want to spoil them all..

The Rise of Savonarola
savonarola.png


An upstart preacher has started to spread his apocalyptic message, advocating for repentance and reform. His message is causing quite a stir among the population, and it's for sure a sign of changing times.

This is a disaster that is likely to happen to Florence in the last decades of the 15th century, if they are a Catholic republic.

To get out of this disaster you either have to become a Theocracy or Savonarola will have to die.


War of the Roses
war_of_the_roses.png


Two junior branches of the House of Plantagenet, the House of Lancaster and the House of York, both claim to be the rightful heir to the throne of England. Sporadic fights between their supporters have already broken out in a number of provinces around the country. Their heraldic symbols, a red rose and a white rose, have already become synonymous with the conflict now commonly known as the War of the Roses.

This is a specific disaster for England which can happen during the 15th century if the ruling dynasty is Plantagenet, and some specific historical events have happened. It will allow you to side with either York or Lancaster as it will build up to a civil war for the throne.



So, which historical events do you think would be best represented by a disaster? Post your suggestions here..

Now, you either get a Christmas present next Wednesday, or you get a lump of coal…
 
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I've just noticed: what's spiritualist (spiritualism, I suppose?) and humanism? Are those societal values and your country will go more towards them at the end of religious turmoil disaster, or is that something else?
 
My question is wether there will ever be a scenario where instead of doubling down to solve the current disaster you instead decide to backtrack and move in your desired direction at a slower pace later. For example during Court and Country, will there ever be a reason for you to resolve the disaster by reducing your absolutism value and veering towards satisfying your estates instead of accepting the penalties and forcefully centralising your country? In EU4 you always want Court and Country to end with you gaining the absolutism bonus. I hope that totally not EU5 will have more viable alternative methods in resolving disasters compared to its predecessor.
Check the C&C disaster screenshot: you can either go towards Absolutism, or towards Liberalism, with different side checks. And it's basically a matter of the direction the player may wont for its country, as you have to decide between one of the two.
 
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Why are there such stringent restrictions on 'Court and Country' and 'Religious Turmoil'? Both of these types of disasters took place in varying ways across many countries throughout the entire time period of the game. Why restrict them to only specific countries and specific time periods?
 
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The Livionian War should really be situation.

When it comes to disasters i think that the civil war against Magnus Eriksson would be nice, and the Dacke war is really a must. Another one that would be nice to see is the Inca civil war between Atahualpa and Huascar.
 
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I've just noticed: what's spiritualist (spiritualism, I suppose?) and humanism? Are those societal values and your country will go more towards them at the end of religious turmoil disaster, or is that something else?
It's a Societal Value present from the start, Spiritualist vs Humanist.
 
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The Tripartition of Hungary...
When the TT about situations appeared, my first thought was that this should be a situation. You have multiple states involved (Ottomans/Great Balkans Invader; Austria/could also be Poland/Bohemia for good measure; the two Hungarian sides of the conflict, hell, even the Romanian states could get involved for a chance to try to snipe Transylvania), it was a drawn out conflict (starting from the Battle of Mohács until the Treaty of Speyer) it's 44 years, so quite a bit longer than your average disaster. I could also see your proposal working, but I think a situation would fit this one better and allow it to have more narrative content.
 
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2 Questions from me.

Firstly, France and the Templar order. France had immense debts to the Templars which lead to their downfall, as the french king did not want to pay his debts so he systematically destroyed the order. Will that be a disaster? Or will we see it as a situation?

Secondly, Any disasters/details you can reveal about the Romania region?(Moldavia/Wallachia/Transylvania)
 
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The Tripartition of Hungary; essentially, if the country is being invaded by the Ottomans (or an equivalent Turkish Empire), and the king dies in battle/there is an Interregnum or the ruler has low legitimacy and is challenged by a pretender, triggers this disaster that is essentially two disasters in a trenchcoat (a Civil War between the two king-candidates and a regular war with the Turks).

This would spawn the rebel faction of the Kingdom of Eastern Hungary, and the expected outcome of this Disaster would be, per the Treaty of Speyer, the consolidation of this rebel Kingdom into the Principality of Transylvania. Per normal gameplay mechanics, it shouldnt be possible for a pretender faction to turn into a sovereign country like that, like it happened in real life, so this is justified to be a disaster.
The creation of the Principality of Transylvania would be presented if either of the factions completely destroys the other one within a fixed period of time, or surrenders, or is unwilling to accept the armistice.

Alternatively, the Tripartition disaster could also be used to model the entire 150 years of tripartition between the Habsburg-lead Royal Hungary, Transylvania, and the Ottoman, and instead of ending with the Treaty of Speyer or its equivalent, would only truly end when one of the three factions truly unifies the entire region (like Habsburg Hungary did at the turn of the 17th-18th centuries).
Edit: actually, it probably would instead be a Situation, because there are three different countries affected; though if civil war factions could count as part of the same disaster, it could be a disaster focused solely on the civil war between Royal Hungary and Eastern Hungary, with it either ending in consolidation of power in one hand or a Transylvanian breakaway.
 
I think a disaster (or situation) that would be really interesting would be The Great Peasants’ Revolt, already represented in a way in EU4. Such a disaster would lead to peasant rebel stacks ransacking their way across southern Germany until they’re crushed or given privileges. Could be triggered by low peasant privileges/needs not met + low religious unity.
 
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The Tripartition of Hungary; essentially, if the country is being invaded by the Ottomans (or an equivalent Turkish Empire), and the king dies in battle/there is an Interregnum or the ruler has low legitimacy and is challenged by a pretender, triggers this disaster that is essentially two disasters in a trenchcoat (a Civil War between the two king-candidates and a regular war with the Turks).

This would spawn the rebel faction of the Kingdom of Eastern Hungary, and the expected outcome of this Disaster would be, per the Treaty of Speyer, the consolidation of this rebel Kingdom into the Principality of Transylvania. Per normal gameplay mechanics, it shouldnt be possible for a pretender faction to turn into a sovereign country like that, like it happened in real life, so this is justified to be a disaster.
The creation of the Principality of Transylvania would be presented if either of the factions completely destroys the other one within a fixed period of time, or surrenders, or is unwilling to accept the armistice.

Alternatively, the Tripartition disaster could also be used to model the entire 150 years of tripartition between the Habsburg-lead Royal Hungary, Transylvania, and the Ottoman, and instead of ending with the Treaty of Speyer or its equivalent, would only truly end when one of the three factions truly unifies the entire region (like Habsburg Hungary did at the turn of the 17th-18th centuries).
My suggestion regarding the Georgian Collapse is literally 1:1 of what happened to Hungary at that time, but according to Pavía, it's best to be left as a situation.
 
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Disaster idea:

Danish Monarchy

Trigger condition: Is Denmark
Will end if: Always negative

Effects:
-50% all Monarch stats
-2 military tactics
 
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Hmmmm, Disasters seem to point you towards extreme ends of the spectrum to get out of them. Isn't there a possibility for more compromise-like outcomes?
 
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Guys, I'm trying to be as frank as I can, without any malice.

The UI looks terrible. Anything shown in this DD fails both in asthetic and User Experience. Please, please PLEASE consult with the artists of CK3 and Vic3. This is an abomination and waaay below modern Paradox standards.
 
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I'm sorry to say it like this, but the 3d art looks horrible here. Pls change it, or maybe make it a game rule. Overcome the sunken costs fallacy. If not then at least make it easily modable.
 
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