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Tinto Talks #42 - 18th of December 2024

Welcome to another Tinto Talks, the happy Wednesday where we give you information about our upcoming super secret game with the codename Project Caesar.

This week we will be talking about the disaster system, which has been present in different forms in recent GSG games from Paradox.

Disasters
There are two major differences between a disaster and a situation. The first is that a disaster is almost always negative, and secondly a disaster is always for a specific country. While multiple situations can be active and involving a country at the same time, only a single disaster can happen at the same time.

There are also two categories of disasters. The specific historical narratives, and the generic ones that can happen to anyone under the right circumstances.

Disasters in Project Caesar are not just a modifier applied to the country, and some events triggering until you fulfill the winning conditions, but you also get unique actions you can do to affect the disaster.

Let's start looking at some common more generic disasters.

Court and Country
Resistance to the growing centralization in our country has culminated in a period of general crisis and conflict between Court and Country. Depending on how we handle this time of crisis we might come out of it a stronger country than before.

This disaster can happen to any country with strong Absolutism or Crown Power in the Age of Absolutism or Age of Revolution.

court_and_country.png

The Nobility has taken the biggest offence to this plan

As you can see above here the UI for this disaster shows your current crown power, and the power of your estates, while also showing the rebel closest to starting a civil war. It also lists the current actions you have in the disaster. Here we cannot rein in the Nobility, as they are too strong already.

Two of the icons above have special tooltips that are useful for you as well.

end_condition.png

You have to endure it for at least a decade..

advice.png

In case you don’t know how to increase crown power..


Religious Turmoil
religious_turmoil.png


Despite the country's efforts to mediate between the different religious groups in our nation, conflicts have been erupting on a regular basis. The situation has worsened and without drastic measures, we will soon be engulfed in a religious civil war.

This disaster can occur during the Age of Reformation for any Catholic country or any country following any Protestant religion, if they have a low enough religious unity and a weak clergy estate.

To get out of this disaster there are multiple ways: get religious unity higher; get the power of the clergy much higher as a spiritualist; or go full humanist, while restoring stability.

While this disaster is happening, there will be a lot of conflict from religious minorities in the country.



If we look into some of the country specific ones, we have a few here, and we don’t want to spoil them all..

The Rise of Savonarola
savonarola.png


An upstart preacher has started to spread his apocalyptic message, advocating for repentance and reform. His message is causing quite a stir among the population, and it's for sure a sign of changing times.

This is a disaster that is likely to happen to Florence in the last decades of the 15th century, if they are a Catholic republic.

To get out of this disaster you either have to become a Theocracy or Savonarola will have to die.


War of the Roses
war_of_the_roses.png


Two junior branches of the House of Plantagenet, the House of Lancaster and the House of York, both claim to be the rightful heir to the throne of England. Sporadic fights between their supporters have already broken out in a number of provinces around the country. Their heraldic symbols, a red rose and a white rose, have already become synonymous with the conflict now commonly known as the War of the Roses.

This is a specific disaster for England which can happen during the 15th century if the ruling dynasty is Plantagenet, and some specific historical events have happened. It will allow you to side with either York or Lancaster as it will build up to a civil war for the throne.



So, which historical events do you think would be best represented by a disaster? Post your suggestions here..

Now, you either get a Christmas present next Wednesday, or you get a lump of coal…
 
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I would like to see the Jagas invasions in Kongo region as a situation that can spawn an army country named Kasanje kingdom (as historically happened).

Fulani Jihads in West Africa could be a situation too.

In east Africa the arabization of Sudan and the Oromo migrations could be both situations.

In south africa the decline of Great Zimbabwe and the ascension of Butua and Mutapa could be a disaster for Zimbabwe tag, while the Roswi empire centuries later could be a situation.

The transatlantic slave trade could be a situation too for African countries.
 
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You confirmed it for the Hussites, but will generic disasters also be able to develop into situations?
No, the Hussites don't do that. The Hussites started development as a disaster and then became a situation. In game (as of now) the Hussites are represented only with a situation.
Started as a disaster, and ended as a situation (development-wise).
That said, it should be possible to make the end of a disaster trigger a situation.
 
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I hope we see a gif or something eventually of the character portraits in motion (I assume they'll move like the other games). Because we have just seen still screenshots it probably isn't helping people's reactions. The animation does give a bit of life at least.
 
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I think a specific one could be the Incan Civil War which basically obliterated the Incan Empire before Spanish even showed up. Something that I think deserves mechanical attention is the fall of the Aztec Empire, where its many subject states ended up siding with the Spanish. Maybe that could be more of a 'situation' as described by mechanical differences, but this swapping sides should be modeled. Maybe combined with solutions for changing religions or governments.

On that note, I think you could do something where Empires-rank nations have slightly unique civil-war disasters- by which I mean Imperial Civil Wars play out differently than for lower-ranked nations. A lot of major empires had problems with people fighting more to be king of the hill than to preserve the Empire itself. You could have some territories declaring independence, increased corruption and the like. Since you want to better simulate the fall of large states I think having larger states experience a worse disaster is something that would be both more engaging mechanically, as well as better for balancing.

I think Colonial Wars of Independance could also work as a disaster or situation- make them more dynamic than simply needing to siege down your colonies capital. Like your rivals getting chances to side with the colony, buffs to the fledgling country fighting for independence.

Another generic one could be a disaster for if a small minority is ruling over a large land of territory without integrating the cultures or moving towards humanist. Solutions could be offered to change ruling cultures and better integrating the territories, which are fought against by old conservatives and traditionalists.

Maybe something else can be done with countries retreating into isolationism and nativism that causes big debuffs in trade and tech, making countries easy fodder for invasion- but maybe this is balanced with some bonuses to defending core territory?

Another possible generic one could be solving a debt-crisis. A more mechanically engaging way of dealing with a nation going bankrupt.

Maybe a peasant-revolt disaster that results in becoming a Peasants Republic? Maybe this could be tied with the Commoners estate somehow taking over, and maybe you could have unique disasters for each estate gaining too much power.

A unique one: Players enjoy reforming great empires. Why not go the full monty and have them deal with reformed falls of said empires? For instance, players might want to try reforming Al-Andalus, what if reforming them can trigger a second Reconquista? This could also double as a situation with Christian nations getting together to discuss how to reclaim Iberia. Maybe something similar could be done if Crusade mechanics get more attention? Another example could be a reformed Roman Empire getting a 'Crisis of the 15th Century', akin to the 'Empire of the 3rd Century'. That's more of a meme suggestion of course.

Oh- how about a 'the Royal Family is too inbred' disaster? For Habsburg enthusiasts.

Golden Age of Piracy should be a situation or disaster, the pirate nations were real fun in EUIV, but were unlikely to ever spawn in game. While I'm bringing them up, can there be a game rule that just spawns all the pirate nations at game start?
 
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But Poland wouldn't really have disasters in the time frame 1300-1600.

I am rather dissatisfied with EU4's Poland nobility crisis, because for some reason it takes away the actual historical option of Poland maintaining it's electoral monarchy system, and forces you into an ahistorical absolute monarchy (this ties into the notion that Poland's political system was somehow less evolved than absolute monarchies, which I would disagree with).

The way EU4 portrays Poland's political system seems to be greatly misinformed; the Polish political system was an incredible success early on, allowing the creation of a large, mutli-ethnic and multi-faith state through diplomacy and consensus and without much military conquest. EU4 portrays Poland's elective monarchy as flawed and limiting from the start, when in reality, Poland's political system only really started failing from the 1650s onwards, due to devastating wars, collapse of the economy, rise of sectarian violence and religious intolerance, etc. etc.

I hope you are able to portray a more accurate picture in Project Caesar.
I think professor Frost that specializes in PLC would disagree with you, if i remember correctly.
 
I'm willing to bet the following are disasters:

1. Time of Troubles
2. Nomad Frontier ;)
3. Ottoman Crisis over decentralisation and decline
4. English Civil War
5. Decline of Cahokia
6. Incan Civil War
7. Arrival of diseases in the New World
 
Forget disasters, I love the lines to show nesting. Please add it to HOI4, it can be a real PITA to read some of the more involved focuses with lots of potential ways to fulfill requirements.
 
What is "Government Power?" It states that increasing it is one of the ways to increase crown power, so what is the difference between "government and "crown" power?

And does the War of the Roses still require that the king not have an heir? This is one of the requirements for the disaster in EU4, and it doesn't make any sense considering that when the civil war started Henry VI did have a son who was heir, Edward of Westminster.
 
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What is "Government Power?" It states that increasing it is one of the ways to increase crown power, so what is the difference between "government and "crown" power?
Government power is the generic term for the different unique currencies that each government type uses. E.g. Legitimacy for monarchies, republican tradition for republics.
 
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So, which historical events do you think would be best represented by a disaster? Post your suggestions here..
Hmm... the Price Revolution in Spain, perhaps? Any country that has access to too much bullion and goes over a certain amount of inflation gets heavily destabilized?

Or just the 1600s in general. Everyone gets the "1600s" modifier that ruins everything.
 
Can you not make it like in EU4 whuch dynamically shows the corresponding name based on your goverment form? It just created confusion otherwise
Maybe. Something you aren't getting from these screenshots is the interactivity, if you mouseover a game concept you don't understand it will give you a paragraph or two explaining it.
 
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