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Tinto Flavour #15 - 25th of April 2025 - Military Orders

Hello and welcome one more week to Tinto Flavour, the happy Fridays in which we take a look at the content of the super secret Project Caesar!

Today, we will be talking about the Christian Military Orders, and specifically, the Teutonic Order and the Knights Hospitallers! Let’s start without further ado:

The glorious Order of Brothers of the German House of Saint Mary in Jerusalem, also known as the Teutonic Order, faces its destiny on the stormy coasts of the Baltic Sea. Created to protect the Christian pilgrims on their way to the Holy City of Jerusalem, its objective shifted to Christianize the Pagan tribes of Prussia and the Baltic through the creation of a state on those lands.

Under the leadership of our predecessor, Hochmeister Werner von Orseln, the Teutonic Order has expanded its territorial holdings, but this expansion has not come without consequences. The Order's aggressive policies have created powerful enemies, as the Pagan tribes to the East have united and formed the Grand Duchy of Lithuania, then allying with our Catholic southern neighbor and rival, the Kingdom of Poland, which has set aside their Christian duty, joining with the pagans against us.

The time has come for our Order to prove that we are up to the crusading task that we have set for ourselves, and show the world that even surrounded by enemies, our faith stands triumphant.
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The Knights Hospitaller conquered the island of Ródos in the early 14th century, spurred by the fall of Acre in 1291, establishing a stronghold that would allow us to pursue our mission to protect Christian pilgrims. Ródos, a picturesque island in the Aegean Sea, has become a thriving center for our Military Order, marked by fortifications and a bustling economy. However, this prosperity is countered by relentless attacks by neighboring Muslim fleets. But we have demonstrated remarkable resilience, defending Ródos through ferocious battles, showcasing our martial prowess and unwavering dedication.

Nonetheless, the future of our Order looks bleak, as our enemies become more powerful and the disunity among the Catholic countries runs rampant. Recovering the Holy Land seems to be a fading hope with each passing day, but our determination is unbreakable, and we will pursue that objective until our last man falls.
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Country Selection Teutons.png

Country Selection Knights.png

As usual, consider all UI, 2D and 3D art WIP.​

The Teutonic Order starts with an interesting political and diplomatic situation:
Teutonic Order.png

Teutonic Diplomacy.png

The Teutonic Order has several vassals, including the Livonian Order; but also starts at war with Poland and Lithuania - something that is not final, since we’re considering representing this Teutonic-Polish conflicts with a truce, instead, as it was resolved peacefully a few years after the start of our game.​

While the situation of the Knights Hospitaller is also interesting, in a different way:
Knights.png

A Unique Location Minor with unique content spotted!​

All Military Orders share some common flavour, starting with a Major Government Reform:
Military Order.png

That unlocks some unique buildings:
Order Headquarters.png

Order Stronghold.png

Order Commandery.png

The Order Headquarters is a capital-only building (so just one per country). The Order Stronghold is a building that you can build in any location you own. While the Order Commandery is a foreign building, that you can build in the lands of any Catholic country with which you have good relations, making it a powerful tool to support your crusading effort.​

There’s also this Estate Privilege for your Clergy:
Military Orders.png

That unlocks a unique diplomatic action with other Catholic countries, the Sponsorship of Military Order:
Sponsorship Military Order.png

Sponsoring.png

Sponsored.png

As being theocracies, the Military Order also have access to unique Laws & Policies, such as:
Law Divine Cause.png

Law Holy Mission.png

Law Monastic Order.png

Law Celibacy.png

Going to the more unique content for each, the Knights have access to a couple more reforms and privileges:
Reform KNI Crusade Sea.png

Privilege KNI Local Commanders.png

The Teutons start with another unique Estate Privilege, and a Work of Art:
Privilege Kulm Law.png

Chronicon Terra Prussiae.png

And both have their own set of advances:

Teutonic Advances
Advance TEU Crusader Discipline.png

Advance TEU Teutonic Heavy Cavalry.png

Advance TEU Reformed Army.png

Advance TEU Teutonic Religious Authority.png

Advance TEU One Estate, One Religion.png


Advances for the Knights Hospitallers
Advance KNI Assistance Suffering.png

Advance KNI Reconquista.png

Advance KNI Scourge.png

Advance KNI Crusade.png

Advance KNI Order State.png

The Teutonic Order and the Knights also have a few dozen unique events each, but since today’s Tinto Flavour is already long enough, let’s just show one example per each:
Saint George1.png

Saint George2.png


Aftermath Crusade Era.png

And that’s all for today! Next Friday is a bank holiday in Tinto, so no Tinto Flavour; but remember that on Monday we will take a look at the Tinto Maps Feedback for Eastern, Central and Southern Africa, and on Wednesday there will be a Tinto Talks about Protestantism and the War of Religion. Cheers!
 

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slupie said:
Do the Knights and Teutons also have buildings throughout the rest of Europe (especially the HRE) to represent the commanderies they operated to draw funding and manpower from?
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The Knights have 31 commanderies and the Teutons 20, throughout Europe.
 
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Atromb said:
I think it would look quite cool if the frame around the country flag look different depending on your country's rank. So for each tier the frame could include more decorations and details. It would be a cool way of showing a country's rank just from their flag.
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Ah, a fellow CK2 enjoyer!
 
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Pavía said:
No, it employs your own pops, and if you lose manpower, your pops are killed; but it's a way of getting an early game manpower boost, since the manpower buildings are scarce in the first couple of ages.
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How does a building that is built in a foreign location employ your own people? Does it employ people from a random location you own? Does this location get increased promotion to clergymen? How does this work?
 
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Pavía said:
No, it employs your own pops, and if you lose manpower, your pops are killed; but it's a way of getting an early game manpower boost, since the manpower buildings are scarce in the first couple of ages.
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So does that mean that you send pops from your country to work in the commanderies that you build around Christendom? Is that the samebfor other foreign buildings?
 
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Pavía said:
Click to expand...

Are the benefits of the commandery fixed, or based off of the development of the region they are built in?

I think it would make sense if a commandery in Rome or Paris would yield a bit more money and manpower then in say, Skegness...

This would also incentivize you to be on friendly terms with lots of large European catholic nations, as to maximize the number of high dev cities you can build commanderies in.
 
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Davincie said:
The Sponsorship action has the military order pay? Shouldn't they be the one getting paid in the sponsorship?
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Bugged tooltip, this is the correct one:

Sponsorship.png
 
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D.Knight said:
This presumes that you'll have full access to your pops to use them as manpower and that there's enough of them to use. After all as the Knights for example you rule over a bunch of Orthodox and Muslims pops.
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It's unclear if non-accepted pops reduce manpower gained or if it's just levies that are decreased. But even if that's the case you'd still be better of hiring mercs as it stands.
 
Blackcat321 said:
With a cost of a 100 gold it would take 167 years for them to just pay for themselves. The manpower meanwhile is a tenth than what you get from training field while also costing twice as much. If you have nothing else to build they might be worth it but right now it seems like most other buildings will be a much better investment.
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Maybe the clergy can be taxed, since your state is clergy thus bypassing the usual Catholic prohibition, and as such you’re effectively growing your tax base with each one of these? If not 100 gold is massively overpriced for what this offers, and should be dropped down significantly, probably to a quarter or even tenth what it is here.
 
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Pavía said:
No, it employs your own pops, and if you lose manpower, your pops are killed; but it's a way of getting an early game manpower boost, since the manpower buildings are scarce in the first couple of ages.
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Hmm, that makes more sense balance wise, but I was hoping you'd represent crusading western knights for the Teutons. Will the Teutons have any special low cost mercenary regiments made from Germanic pops, or any other representation of Germanic settlement or volunteer crusading knights?
 
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Álvaro Núñez de Lara said:
Well in the case of Prussia it might not be worth it. It might be a matter of balance. It might be a matter they want you to focus on developing your lands instead of parasiting others. I would definitely expect them to be way cheaper or way stronger if you are a Holy Order building based country like the military orders of Spain
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Maybe, but it seems a bit sad that commanderies become essentially worthless to build after you gain land.
 
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matfer13 said:
Will we get a TF for the Iberian holy orders as well?
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They don't have unique content, but use the same mechanics as the other Military Orders (although they aren't land-based, but building-based).
 
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eddin2 said:
Great work!

Is Order Commandery building possible to build in each location, or only one per foreign country?

And possible suggestion for Teuton-Polish war/truce. Maybe present it as a series of events without possibility of war, but potentially impacting their future relations?
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One per location.
 
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Pavía said:
Historical option if you're losing:

View attachment 1285710
View attachment 1285711
View attachment 1285712
Ignore the Kingdom rank, that's something to tweak.​

Or the alt-historical way if you're winning:

Brandenburg also has content directed to become Prussia, OFC, but we'll talk about that in a future TF.
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Historically, the Teutons remained the Teutons while being Polish vassals, which caused issues as the Teutons were nominally also HRE vassals. The secularisation only happened once the Hohenzollern Hochmeister converted to Lutheranism, becoming the first Lutheran state in Europe. I think the historical event should also reflect this.
 
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Mef said:
Alt-historical content seems to be fairly common with advances, though?
Historically, the State of the Teutonic Order ceased to exist well before the Age of Discovery starts, yet they have unique advances for later ages.
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It's one of the few instances in which we allow alt-historical, since it doesn't feel right if you keep playing as the Teutonic Order, but stop having any unique advances after the Age of Reformation.
 
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Pavía said:
The Knights have 31 commanderies and the Teutons 20, throughout Europe.
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Great! Is there a map which represents this? (And can we see it?)
 
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SirArchiebald said:
Are the benefits of the commandery fixed, or based off of the development of the region they are built in?

I think it would make sense if a commandery in Rome or Paris would yield a bit more money and manpower then in say, Skegness...

This would also incentivize you to be on friendly terms with lots of large European catholic nations, as to maximize the number of high dev cities you can build commanderies in.
Click to expand...

I wouldn't base the gold income on development but rather on the location's tax base.
Buildings represent the effort required to achieve a certain output, in this case donations and manpower. Most buildings have fixed values and you need to have more of them (i.e. more effort) to get better results, which is a good way to prevent snowballing scaling.
But it would make sense if the same building, representing the same amount of effort, in a location with a wealthy economy was able to collect more donations than in a poorer location.
 
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Pavía said:
They don't have unique content, but use the same mechanics as the other Military Orders (although they aren't land-based, but building-based).
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Sad but expected, is their gameplay fundamentally the same from the landed ones? What's the fun in plaiyng as one of the Iberian holy orders especially if they can't becone landed?
 
>Forbidden from conversion

Oh, so I can't release my Orthodox Knights Hospitalier as Byzantium. Shame.

You know though- it'd be nice if there's unique content there. Probably not at release date since it's an alt-history scenario, but I think there should be something that considers the unique role of the Knights' as anti-islamic pirates that'd be useful for a resurgent Byzantine Empire.
 
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