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Tinto Talks #61 - 30th of April 2025

Hello, and welcome to another Tinto Talks, the happy Wednesdays where we talk about our entirely super-top-secret game with the codename Project Caesar.

This week, we will examine the mechanics of Protestant religions and the final situation involving all Western Christian confessions, the War of Religions.

First is first, we differentiate the 3 main Protestant religions: Lutheranism, Calvinism, and Anglicanism. All the different branches of Protestantism, more or less strictly covered under these wide denominations, are later represented through Church Aspects, a mechanism we’ll describe now. The underlying system here is for every player to be able to customize their own Protestant Church. As an example, the early Anglican Church funded by Henry VIII was very different from the Anglican Church that developed in times of James I, and the further division that then happened with the Puritans; we aim to portray dynamically these theological aspects with Church Aspects, therefore.

Let’s take a look at a Lutheran country first:

Early Reformation.jpg
I’m using the same save as last week’s TT. The Reformation was born in Perugia, and after a couple of years, it has already spread to some countries, of which Denmark is the biggest.

Here is the overview of Lutheranism and its religious panel:
Lutheranism tooltip.jpg

Lutheranism panel.jpg

Similarly to Catholicism, and other religions, it also uses Religious Influence as a currency:
Religious Influence.jpg

This currency is used to add or change Religious Aspects to your Church, and it also allows us to perform Religious Actions (of which we can’t currently perform any, as we don’t fulfill any of their triggers).

Let’s take a look now at the Religious Aspects, which define each Protestant Church:
Religious Aspect.jpg

There are plenty of Aspects, that can be either shared between the different Protestant religions, or be unique to them. This is the list of all the aspects available to Lutheran churches:
Religious Aspect2.jpg

Religious Aspect3.jpg

Religious Aspect4.jpg

Religious Aspect5.jpg

And this is what it looks like when you decide to pick one of them:
Translated Bibles.jpg

The base number of Religious Aspects that define each Church is 3, although this is subject to review, as usual. And it is possible to have entirely different and unique aspects per religion, since it’s a scriptable/moddable feature. Furthermore, Religious Aspects can have an impact on the relations a country has with others who use Religious Aspects. Since the aspects are partially shared between the faiths, this could lead to unlikely friendships… and hostilities.

Let’s now move on to the next religion, Calvinism, which is quite similar in structure to Lutheranism. It also spawns during the Reformation situation, it also has Calvinist Preachers that spread it, and it also uses Religious Aspects and Actions:
Calvinist Preachers.png

Calvinism tooltip.jpg

Calvinist panel.jpg

Calvin.jpg

Fun fact, Calvin has ended up being the Bishop (=ruler) of Basel in our save game!

Finally, we have Anglicanism. This Protestant religion doesn’t trigger through the situation, but as an event for England that may trigger after the Reformation is active:
Act of Supremacy.jpg

Ignore the broken loc, it appears like that because I used a console command to trigger it.

If we decided to Take command of the Church, a new religion will be created:
Take command of the Church.jpg

Anglicanism2.jpg

This is its overview and panel; Anglicanism starts with some more Religious Actions available:
Anglicanism.jpg

Anglican Religious Actions.jpg

Last, but not least, we have a couple of religions that also share the religious aspects, but are not necessarily tied to the Reformation situation. This includes Lollardy and Hussitism, which will be created together with their corresponding reformer, and the earlier catholic heresies of Bogomilism, Catharism, Paulicianism, and Waldensian.

The last feature we’re going to take a look at today is another situation, the War of Religions. This is the ending to all the narratives related to the Catholic and Protestant Churches, a fight for the religious supremacy over Europe, centered over the Holy Roman Empire, with the Thirty Years' War as inspiration:
War of Religion1.jpg

War of Religion2.jpg

War of Religion3.jpg

Two International Organizations will be created, the Protestant Union and the Catholic League:
Protestant Union.jpg

Catholic League.jpg

And this is the panel for the situation, which both sides, their relative strengths, the possibility to join one side or the other, etc.:
War of Religion4.jpg

An inconclusive result may lead to the negotiation of the Peace of Westphalia between the members of both Leagues and will alter the religious laws of the Holy Roman Empire.

… And that’s all for today! Next week, @Johan will come back once again to show more of the most recent changes and tweaks in the game. Cheers!
 
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Will wars have truce periods to reflect members swapping sides like the Burgundians did through the Hundred Years War or other countries did during the Thirty Years War? Or will something like the Russians backing out of the Seven Years War against Prussia because the new Tsar was pro-German be a possibility?
 
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I wasn't super clear, I'm sorry. What I mean is that considering the modern Hussites are in communion with the Lutherans and the modern Waldensians are in communion with the Reformed church, they are considerablly more similar than any part of the Radical Reformation is to everyone else.

Aren't they called proto Protestants because they themselves later identified as Protestant? Especially the Hussites, while they didn't all just become Lutheran flat out, many of them did. And even the ones that didn't that still exist today are in full communion with Lutherans. (Admittedly, pretty much the entire magisterial reformation is in full communion in the present day)

When playing as a Waldensian Austria or something, I don’t want my tolerance of Calvinists to be the same as my tolerance of Catholic, both at the pop level and at the tag level I would like to be able to treat them as my coreligionists, or close enough to that.
That's fair. I think a lot of nuance would be lost by portraying them as part of a group they later joined in communion, when there are sometimes fairly significant doctrinal differences between them and the larger denominations which formed after them. They're small regional denominations and largely seemed to find commonality in other protestant groups for support, though of course with some doctrinal similarities to bond over.

The reason they're called proto-protestants varies by who is calling them that. For example a scholar might be pointing out trends in groups separating from the Catholic church, or trends in certain doctrines appearing in denominations, such as stances on infant baptism or transubstantiation which might be seen as being theological precursors to the protestants of the reformation. Some Baptists might call groups the same thing when trying to tie their denomination to an older school of thought or even the first-century church such as in Baptist successionist movements. It's almost never because adherents of the denomination later became protestants. Usually if there's a direct link, it will be shared schools of thought, doctrine and interpretation. Typically it just means that a group holds what might be seen as views similar to the protestants of the reformation, but having formed before the reformation.

That said, if the game sets up the aspects of faith correctly, and they work as described here, I'd like to believe that Waldensians and Moravians would be able to be treated as equals to nearby protestants. If not, the mechanics should be adjusted so that their doctrinal similarities let them be seen as brothers in faith with their newer counterparts.
 
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Not to get all Crusader Kings3 on y'all but the tenet/doctrine system really seems to be a good way of separating the more important doctrinal distinctives between different Protestants and the smaller, more insignificant differences that are being shown in the Aspect system. You guys are including things that are central like "Translated Bibles" that all Reformers advocated, and putting that on the same level as "War Sermons" which is a situational aspect. I would recommend something similar-ish as below to be a better Protestant Church system. Obviously other tenets could be included if you give it more than 5 minutes of thought that it took me in making the example.

1746041633387.png


Also I would suggest removing Adult Baptisms as the three magisterial Reformation branches that you have here (Lutheran/Calvinist/Anglican) all affirmed infant baptism. Only the radical reformation advocated that adult/credobaptism.
 
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Not to get all Crusader Kings3 on y'all but the tenet/doctrine system really seems to be a good way of separating the more important doctrinal distinctives between different Protestants and the smaller, more insignificant differences that are being shown in the Aspect system. You guys are including things that are central like "Translated Bibles" that all Reformers advocated, and putting that on the same level as "War Sermons" which is a situational aspect. I would recommend something similar-ish as below to be a better Protestant Church system. Obviously other tenets could be included if you give it more than 5 minutes of thought that it took me in making the example.

View attachment 1287796

Also I would suggest removing Adult Baptisms as the three magisterial Reformation branches that you have here (Lutheran/Calvinist/Anglican) all affirmed infant baptism. Only the radical reformation advocated that adult/credobaptism.
You beat me to it!

My mock up of the same thing was not nearly as polished, yet, however. I also had Transubstantiation on mine, but largely only for the opinion mechanic so that more similar schools of thought would get along a little more. I was still thinking through if having it made sense, though. Those four categories are really good. It should not take an aspect slot to determine Ecclesiology, especially.

The only one I'm not certain on is "Church and State". I feel that should probably be set on the national level, not the faith level. Then again, with national-level churches it's a little difficult to work out where one ends and the other begins.
 
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1.Could you clarify in the tooltip how many pops are meant to convert to anglicanism (and i suppose there are other areas in the game that would show the info this way)? "Many will convert" seems a little too vague in my opinion.
2. The map seems a little bit "uneventfull", but it may be becausw you scripted the event to fire just as you said with the anglicanism earlier, could I have a confirmation? Edit: that could be on me, i see some changes now, i was refering in particular to iberia, because central europe is just central europe and is difficult to say without colours
Anyway, just want to say that i think you guys are doing a great job at this game and the interaction with us
 
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  • So we have IO types now? What is an IO type and how does it differ from an IO?
  • Shouldn't this refer back to the War of Religions Situation?
  • Can we change the last line of the description to use the Union instead of IO like was done with the Catholic League
  • (I guess this confirms that some IO do block access to other IO removing that as a point of commonality with all IO)
Protestant%20Union.jpg


  • Is the number of pops in each religion an important stat? Wouldn't standing armies and possibly levies of union/league members be more important?
  • What is the Icon shown both on the blue banner and on the 'parchment' for?
  • Are the 'leaders' important?
    • if so, why have the fancy background that we cannot see?
    • if not, can they be reduced and moved to the corners to better see the image. (or removed).
  • Hegemony, not Hemenogy
  • "by enforcing the Religious Supremacy through the Religious Superiority War"
    • Either go to list form with the 'linked' concepts or write logical sentences without forcing them all in.
  • Don't know if it is a resolution thing, but the background images of the main bars do not look good (i.e main action bar, no War bar)
  • For peace, is the 80% a weighted percentage?
War%20of%20Religion4.jpg
 
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Not to get all Crusader Kings3 on y'all but the tenet/doctrine system really seems to be a good way of separating the more important doctrinal distinctives between different Protestants and the smaller, more insignificant differences that are being shown in the Aspect system. You guys are including things that are central like "Translated Bibles" that all Reformers advocated, and putting that on the same level as "War Sermons" which is a situational aspect. I would recommend something similar-ish as below to be a better Protestant Church system. Obviously other tenets could be included if you give it more than 5 minutes of thought that it took me in making the example.

View attachment 1287796

Also I would suggest removing Adult Baptisms as the three magisterial Reformation branches that you have here (Lutheran/Calvinist/Anglican) all affirmed infant baptism. Only the radical reformation advocated that adult/credobaptism.
Having a separate core tenets screen where you need to make a choice about a few specific issues sounds like a great idea.
Other modifiers such as the translated bibles could possibly be already included as a base for lutherans and calvinists and only be a selectable tenet for the other faiths. In general making the basic form of the faiths have a few more modifiers would be a good thing to represent their fundamental 'core' differences with catholicism, they feel like too much of an empty slate at the moment.
 
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You beat me to it! My mock up of the same thing was not nearly as polished, yet, however. I also had Transubstantiation on mine, but largely only for the opinion mechanic so that more similar schools of thought would get along a little more. I was still thinking if it made sense, though. Those four categories are definitely must-haves, however. It should not take an aspect slot to determine Ecclesiology, especially.
I would agree, about the Eucharistic theology one improving/harming relations. Also I would say that depending on the Protestant confession that one chooses, some options are locked. Like Anglicans could only choose Bishops or Superintendents, since those are inextricably tied to the monarch as Supreme governor; while Reformed/Calvinist could not select "Sacramental Union/Consubstantiation" as their Eucharistic doctrine and could only choose "Spiritual Presence" or "Memorialism" as the only options to them.
 
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You can pick the Religious Aspects that fit them better, dynamically.
But that makes no sense. Unitarianism and Anabaptism are so heavily condemned as heresy by all christian denomination, including Lutheran and Calvinist denominations, that it simply does not make any sense to have Anabaptists represented as "lutherans that picked this church aspect". Not historically, not in game terms. Unitarians are so radically different, that they are "christians" only by their religious culture and the terms they use, because they deny the fundamental aspects of christianity itself, the divnity of Jesus, and anabaptists are so distinct from any of the shown protestant denomination (even distinct from regular Baptists), that it would be like "we don't need calvinism, we represent that as lutherans who picked the predestination church aspect". No, please do not go this route.
 
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The event triggers either to England or Great Britain, so if you're able to form GB as Scotland, you may get it that way.

John Knox is one of the historical reformers who may spawn with the Reformation, by the way.
Am I right in assuming that an England/GB player has no choice in when this event spawns? That was a bit of a pet peeve for me in EUIV. After all, the King did have a say in when he decided to break with Rome. Would it not be possible to make it something that an England/GB player can tricker assuming certain preconditions are met?
 
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I would agree, about the Eucharistic theology one improving/harming relations. Also I would say that depending on the Protestant confession that one chooses, some options are locked. Like Anglicans could only choose Bishops or Superintendents, since those are inextricably tied to the monarch as Supreme governor; while Reformed/Calvinist could not select "Sacramental Union/Consubstantiation" as their Eucharistic doctrine and could only choose "Spiritual Presence" or "Memorialism" as the only options to them.
That would work really well, I think.

In that same vein I suppose you could do the same thing with credobaptism, having it be a possible doctrine only for Radical Reformists, while other Protestants could have an "Oppose" and "Tolerate" policy. Though I'm unsure it would be worth it for a whole UI element to determine a faith's view on one specific group of denominations, or if they should just be stuck opposing the practice and only Radical Reformist denominations should be able to set a stance on the practice.

One doctrine that's just come to me as being quite useful is apostolic succession. Most denominations have a stance, and having Scandinavian and German Lutherans have differing stances on the issue would be an interesting nuance.
 
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I'm surprised you guys didn't add anything for the 'Church of Sweden', any particular reason those three protestant denominations get the most attention?
The church of Sweden is Lutheran.
It only differs from German Lutherans on the topic of apostolic succession, like the other Scandinavian Lutheran churches, and that is presumably covered by the aspect of faith mechanic.
 
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Regarding the "everything is preordained" modifier I didn't see it as making magically the world preordained, but rather that since your army have that belief, they'll stay "stuck" on the first random event they encounter in the given situation. That would be the reason YOUR die roll stays the same, not the one of your opponent.
 
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Or will something like the Russians backing out of the Seven Years War against Prussia because the new Tsar was pro-German be a possibility?
This is an unusual case of a change in leadership forcing an extremely irrational change in state policy, to the point I'm not sure it can be represented. If it was to be depicted however Russia signing a separate white peace with Prussia would be accurate.
Not to get all Crusader Kings3 on y'all but the tenet/doctrine system really seems to be a good way of separating the more important doctrinal distinctives between different Protestants and the smaller, more insignificant differences that are being shown in the Aspect system. You guys are including things that are central like "Translated Bibles" that all Reformers advocated, and putting that on the same level as "War Sermons" which is a situational aspect. I would recommend something similar-ish as below to be a better Protestant Church system. Obviously other tenets could be included if you give it more than 5 minutes of thought that it took me in making the example.

View attachment 1287796

Also I would suggest removing Adult Baptisms as the three magisterial Reformation branches that you have here (Lutheran/Calvinist/Anglican) all affirmed infant baptism. Only the radical reformation advocated that adult/credobaptism.
I hope this gets some consideration from the devs. This along with representation for radical reformists are absolutely vital to representing the reformation accurately.
 
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It costs stability, besides Religious Influence, to change the existing ones. And we could add an implementation time for them, if it's something the community wants.

Yes please! Doctrines are something that deeply affect society. It should cause turmoil and take a long time to implement as core deep believes are difficult to replace with the population. It should not be immediate so you can exploit it by changing it whenever it suits you.
 
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Developers, please add Wahhabis, the Islamic Analogue of Protestants
Shouldn't they just be a 'school' inside sunnism?
Even then, it’s more of a movement that can vary from one individual to another as opposed to a well defined school. You wouldn’t have pops who identify themselves specifically as Wahhabis although you could have a state whose religious authority aligns more to Wahhabi ideology. Even Sufism is more well defined and organized but difficult to represent at PC’s scale. The schools of jurisprudence would be a better way of breaking down “schools” within Sunni Islam. (note for Shias this map shows their different branches as opposed to schools of law)
1746050030803.png
 
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