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I don't know why this is even an argument when literally every single historian worth a damn considers the "Byzantines" to be the direct continuation of the Roman Empire.

Yes, Johnny with a C+ in High School history and a poster of Sabaton on your wall, your feelings definitely can argue on par with historians. /s
 
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Okay- then we should establish criteria for what makes the claim to be inheritor of nation's legacy legitimate. Otherwise there's no way to establish whether ERE is legitimate or isn't. And same applies for any other state that considered itself to be either a successor or direct continuator of the original state. And that's not exclusive to Roman Empire, it's valid for every state in the world. I see a lot of posts in this thread claiming either A or B and postulating (often valid) arguments but I can see no baseline being established. So it basically boils down to "my opinion is right cause I like it more".

No, we're not here to judge claims. We're here to evaluate what way to call late Medieval polities in a way that is the least subjective possible. It's fairly easy for most nations because what they called themselves is also what others called them. The point of contention here is the Byzantine Empire, because they've been called many different things for various reasons.
 
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I don't know why this is even an argument when literally every single historian worth a damn considers the "Byzantines" to be the direct continuation of the Roman Empire.

Yes, Johnny with a C+ in High School history and a poster of Sabaton on your wall, your feelings definitely can argue on par with historians. /s

Just nuancing here a bit. Historians don't necessarily consider the "Byzantines" to be the direct continuation of the Roman Empire, only that the Byzantines claimed to. I agree with others that whether or not this is true is propably not answerable objectively. What is objective and documented though is that they called themselves Romans and so did many other people.
 
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The Papal State is a valid claimant, yes. However, in all due respect, your feelings don't stand strong in front of 1,000 years of Byzantines not holding Rome and consistently calling themselves Romans.
I just don't think what people call themselves matters that much. Rome is a city. A Roman Empire is an Empire of Rome. The moment the Byzantines lost Rome they lost the legitimacy of the Empire. You say that the people of the Byzantine called themselves Roman. What did the people of the actual city of Rome call themselves? They have a better claim to be Roman than anyone else, and they were not in the Greek Empire of the East. How can a Empire of the Romans not rule over the only ones who are indisputably Roman?
 
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I just don't think what people call themselves matters that much. Rome is a city. A Roman Empire is an Empire of Rome. The moment the Byzantines lost Rome they lost the legitimacy of the Empire. You say that the people of the Byzantine called themselves Roman. What did the people of the actual city of Rome call themselves? They have a better claim to be Roman than anyone else, and they were not in the Greek Empire of the East. How can a Empire of the Romans not rule over the only ones who are indisputably Roman?

You're touching on the exact source of the debate. There is no doubt that in the early Roman era, "Roman" meant "from the city of Rome". However, well into the imperial era, when 95% of Roman citizens had never set foot in Rome, but instead shared common values and interests, are you sure the definition of "Roman" was still "from the city of Rome"? Many historians agree that by that point, the concept of romanity had evolved away from the city of Rome and into the domain of cultural identity. It is that definition of "Roman" that the Byzantines claimed. The inhabitants of Rome called themselves Romans too, because they lived in Rome, but these two definitions are not mutually exclusive.
 
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A Roman Empire is an Empire of Rome. The moment the Byzantines lost Rome they lost the legitimacy of the Empire.
The Roman Empire was not "an Empire of Rome", it was the Empire that the romans built. That empire still remained, which is why this conversation is even a thing. The city is inconsequential, Byzantium was the Roman Empire just like how a painting by Picasso still is "a Picasso painting" (and not "a Picasso museum painting").
 
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Historians don't necessarily consider the "Byzantines" to be the direct continuation of the Roman Empire, only that the Byzantines claimed to.
Yes, in fact, they do. Because that is a historical fact.
 
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They have a better claim to be Roman than anyone else
11th of July 212, Constitutio Antoniana, decreed that all free men in the Roman Empire were Roman Citizens. More than just the citizens within Rome the city itself. This map is from just 5 years later, but you get the picture. All of the free men in the Empire were, objectively, despite any insipid whinge from people on this forum, ROMAN.
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The Roman Empire was an Empire named after the city of Rome, but it grew so much larger than that. To pretend that losing that city meant the Empire was no longer Roman is such an insane point of view.
 
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Yes, in fact, they do. Because that is a historical fact.

I should have been more accurate. They are indeed direct continuation of the Roman Empire, but whether or not they are the only heirs of Rome, or the even the most legitimate, can be debated. My feeling is that they are the most legitimate heirs, but I can't objectively argue for it, because there is no universal definition of what the Roman Empire is.
 
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You're touching on the exact source of the debate. There is no doubt that in the early Roman era, "Roman" meant "from the city of Rome". However, well into the imperial era, when 95% of Roman citizens had never set foot in Rome, but instead shared common values and interests, are you sure the definition of "Roman" was still "from the city of Rome"? Many historians agree that by that point, the concept of romanity had evolved away from the city of Rome and into the domain of cultural identity. It is that definition of "Roman" that the Byzantines claimed. The inhabitants of Rome called themselves Romans too, because they lived in Rome, but these two definitions are not mutually exclusive.
Still, that is something you can argue, but it's not an objective fact. The people of the Visigothic kingdom were all considered "citizens" of the kingdom (hispanorroman and goth distinctions were abolished in the Visigothic kingdom), the kings of León and Castile claimed to be the heirs of the Visigothic kings, and still historians don't consider Spain as a valid heir of the Visigothic kingdom, even though it is actually pretty probable that Pedro dux cantabriae (the oldest known ancestor of kings of Spain) was an actual visigothic noble, an actual goth and as such he probably had some blood ties with Visigothic royalty. I find that many (bad) historians try to find facts to corroborate their personal narratives instead of creating narratives from the facts.
 
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whether or not they are the only heirs of Rome, or the even the most legitimate, can be debated.
That is not an argument that is being had or is worth having. It honestly has nothing to do with what to call the Romans in EU5 if you believe the Ottomans or Germans ruSSians or whoever the hell else has a legitimate claim. That is a whole separate debate.
 
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Still, that is something you can argue, but it's not an objective fact. The people of the Visigothic kingdom were all considered "citizens" of the kingdom (hispanorroman and goth distinctions were abolished in the Visigothic kingdom), the kings of León and Castile claimed to be the heirs of the Visigothic kings, and still historians don't consider Spain as a valid heir of the Visigothic kingdom, even though it is actually pretty probable that Pedro dux cantabriae (the oldest known ancestor of kings of Spain) was an actual visigothic noble, an actual goth and as such he probably had some blood ties with Visigothic royalty. I find that many (bad) historians try to find facts to corroborate their personal narratives instead of creating narratives from the facts.

No, because, again, Late Medieval Spaniards never called themselves "Visigoths". Claims of ancestry and identity is two different topics.
 
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No, we're not here to judge claims. We're here to evaluate what way to call late Medieval polities in a way that is the least subjective possible. It's fairly easy for most nations because what they called themselves is also what others called them. The point of contention here is the Byzantine Empire, because they've been called many different things for various reasons.
It's not "fairly easy". Until state apparatus evolved, state was very often conflated with persona of its ruler. There were many states that were united only by the king's/duke's authority and dissolved as soon he died. Going back to Poland's example, we've had a long period of (over hundred years!) when there wasn't a single duchy/kingdom of Poland but multiple principalities contending for the title. Or actually not even principalities- individual rulers with varying validity of claims did. At the very beginning there was a senior duke but the tile quickly lost its meaning cause it was usurped very often. Here's a map of how it looked like (and evolved). Is any of those states more or less Polish than the other?
1747740611326.jpeg


ERE is actually unique because it was much more of a state, actually independent from its ruler. But it was no less susceptible to its name being dependent on others recognising it. And majority of western Europe didn't recognize it as Roman for most time. During that period, Roman emperor was also called "Emperor of the Greeks" or (worse) "Emperor of Constantinople". And they often didn't object cause they were unable to to change it. That doesn't make them "Byzantine", the term itself is anachronistic as it was never used until more modern times but it was certainly not obvious to call Eastern Roman Empire a Roman Empire.
 
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You're not arguing in good faith. The title "King of the Romans" was bestowed by the Pope onto the Franks, who, again, had taken land that used to part of the Roman Empire. The pope needed to curry favours from the Franks and gave them the legitimacy they needed to rule Europe hegemonically. That title was passed on to the HRE and it stuck around. The Holy Roman Emperor didn't clam to be Roman, only to be the true heir of the Roman Empire. I don't deny their claim, nor do I deny Russia's, or the Ottomans'. The Roman Empire as a political entity was so large and so ecumenical in nature, that it provided legitimacy to many hegemonical nations to rule large swathes of land in Europe and the Mediterranean. I will however die on the hill that in the Medieval era, the only people to call themselves Romans outside of the city of Rome was the Byzantines.

The Romans of the King of the Romans absolutely claimed to be Romans.

As for the popes, you curiously seems to forget they were (and remain) popes of the Roman Church.

The bad faith is claiming that Greek had extra privilege to call themselves Romans while other "Romans" are disqualified. But it is easy to understand this misconception from people who clearly have no familiarity with Ancient Roman history.

You give absolute pre-eminance to the state continuity. "Byzance" deserve to be called Roman Empire because it is the same "state". If I stop trolling and start to discuss seriously, I inclined to admit it has a little value. But just a little due to the mix of civil wars discontinuity, the fact this "state" was not a "whole" "state" but merely half of its administration (which were regularly cut short through civil wars and coup d'état anyway) and how nonsensical the very notion of "state" is for pre modern era.

The big problem is very quickly, the Romans themselves distinguished between their national identity (Gauls, African, Italian, Greeks, Syrians, Illyrians, etc) and their shared Roman identity. This is something you can find in 4th century and 5th century authors. But even earlier still. A classic document to study in university is a letter from Cicero to one of his friend where he explain his feelings over his shared Roman / Arpinum identities.

It is in fact a fundamental difference between the city state of Rome and Greek polis. The Romans were relatively open to grant their citizenship to notable foreigners first, and eventually most people living in their "empire". Turning the "Roman" part into a legal statue rather than a national identity.

The other problem with the state continuity argument is it fundamentally misunderstand what was the "Imperium Romanum" during the ancient era, essentially an inequal federation of city states, and it misunderstand how "emperors" fit in their when the Roman Republic was de-facto destroyed by Octavius. Hint : the quotes around "emperors" are not just for decoration.

There is no ignorance in my comment. I am merely pointing out the historical reality that is at odds with your assertion. Have a wonderful day... preferably with a book.
Your comment is grossly ignorant. First because the de-facto capital used by the imperial administration had long changed before Diocletian.

Famously, Gallenius based his civil administration and his military comitatus in Milan during the height of the "Third Century Crisis". Before that his administration was based in Treves while his father was campaigning east with his own administration.

Your focus on administrative capital is a flawed one anyway. The capital was where the or an imperial court went. Meanwhile Rome the location and the city state continued to hold pre-eminence long after Diocletian. Which is why Constantius II visit of the city was a big deal for exemple. Among many other events.
 
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The bad faith is claiming that Greek had extra privilege to call themselves Romans while other "Romans" are disqualified. But it is easy to understand this misconception from people who clearly have no familiarity with Ancient Roman history.
The strawmen, the irony, the hilarity, the ignorance.
 
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No, because, again, Late Medieval Spaniards never called themselves "Visigoths". Claims of ancestry and identity is two different topics.
The Visigoths didn't call themselves the Visigothic kingdom at the end of their rule, as far as I know, only at the begining. They called their kingdom Hispania. That's why their calendar was actually the Hispanic Era, which didn't originate in the birth of Jesus, but in 38 b.C. (it's not known why). The medieval Iberian kings actually kept using this system for a while. In fact, at game start Castile still uses the Hispanic Era.
 
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It's not "fairly easy". Until state apparatus evolved, state was very often conflated with persona of its ruler. There were many states that were united only by the king's/duke's authority and dissolved as soon he died. Going back to Poland's example, we've had a long period of (over hundred years!) when there wasn't a single duchy/kingdom of Poland but multiple principalities contending for the title. Or actually not even principalities- individual rulers with varying validity of claims did. At the very beginning there was a senior duke but the tile quickly lost its meaning cause it was usurped very often. Here's a map of how it looked like (and evolved). Is any of those states more or less Polish than the other?View attachment 1302691

ERE is actually unique because it was much more of a state, actually independent from its ruler. But it was no less susceptible to its name being dependent on others recognising it. And majority of western Europe didn't recognize it as Roman for most time. During that period, Roman emperor was also called "Emperor of the Greeks" or (worse) "Emperor of Constantinople". And they often didn't object cause they were unable to to change it. That doesn't make them "Byzantine", the term itself is anachronistic as it was never used until more modern times but it was certainly not obvious to call Eastern Roman Empire a Roman Empire.

Yes, we have to be careful with the concept of nation, which is anachronistic. The Poles were divided under different rules for a long of time, but they all called themselves Poles and so did other people.

For the ERE, I agree that the West didn't call the Byzantine Emperor "Roman", but I argue this was mostly for political and religious reasons. We also need to look outside of Western Europe where many other people (e.g. the Turks) did call them Romans.
 
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This is already possible within the game. You can be the kingdom of england and when you don't have enough land area to show the full, proper title, it gets shortened to england. Same can happen here, from Empire of the Romans to Roman Empire to just Rome at the smallest.
So East Rome is shortened to Rome? And if someone forms Rome, the formable country with that name, there map says Rome for two countries? Does not sound right.
 
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This is already possible within the game. You can be the kingdom of england and when you don't have enough land area to show the full, proper title, it gets shortened to england. Same can happen here, from Empire of the Romans to Roman Empire to just Rome at the smallest.
Just calling Rome, the actual name of the city, to an Empire that doesn't own Rome is just too ridiculous. Rome should be what the Roman Republic (the papal states formable after rebelion) gets shortened to.
 
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Just calling Rome, the actual name of the city, to an Empire that doesn't own Rome is just too ridiculous.
It's not ridiculous seeing as that's what happened in history.
Rome should be what the Roman Republic (the papal states formable after rebelion) gets shortened to.
The what? Where are you getting this from?
 
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