Tinto Flavour #20 - 23rd of May 2025

[Inzano]

Why are we having two countries for Tinto Flavour next week?

You mean five?

 

[Retsu92]

The Smolensk War (1632-1634) and Russo-Polish War (1654-1667) beg to disagree.

Because it is a union of two nations that only formed 230 years after the start date and didn't even survive until the end date.
Look, I respect Poland, they have an amazing history and culture and EU5's timeframe was arguably the most important for this great nation, but claiming it is more important than an empire that conquered 1/6 of the Earth total land area is questionable.

Smolensk war was lost by russia and it was decisive victory of Poland(idk why did you even bring it up), and ended in treaty where russia accepts PLC control over Smolensk, and russo-polish war in 1654-1667 was not just between russia nad commonwealth, but cossacks, russia and PLC, along with it happening during and after swedish deluge(that ended with about 1/3 of plc population dying) and plc war with ottmans(Crimean khanate), after commonwealth was able to focus on Russia it reached stalemate.

Poland and Lithuanina seprately(more like togehter as they were long allies, and connected by marriages, were standing as european powerhouse, after Casmir The Great, Poland alone was only below HRE, France and Castille in europe when it comes to power.

Thas why i mention the time table, Russia becomes important but ONLY after the Commonwealth looses majoirty of its power, its not until 1700 that Russia gaints upper hand over PLC, and starts its time as Great Power, i dont think it justifies Russia being one of 7 most important nations in 1337-1836 peroid when they are not even the most important/powerful nation in Eastern Europe before very late 1600s or early 1700s.

I dont deny importance of Russia, just that in the time frame of eu5 they simply historically are secondary power in eastern europe for about 330 years after the start of the game. Russia simply wasnt strong and important enought to varant the place on pedestal they are given, also i am commenting to highlight that Russia wasnt always eastern european power, like i said they were just regional power in russia and couldnt fully contend with actuall powers like Commonwealth unless they fought along other powers against PLC.

Edit: its just my opinon that Russia doesnt deserve to be 1 of 7 most important countries when there is already other country in region that was important for longer in time frame of game, especially as Russian peroid of importance started only in what would be considered late game.​

 

[Nikicaga]

Not very diverse ATM:
View attachment 1305086

Shame that there's no remnants of pre-Slavic populations

I remember you wanted to come back for the minorities in Russia afterwards, is that still planned?

 

[Avlakim]

Smolensk war was lost by russia, and ended in treaty where russia accepts PLC control over Smolensk, and russo-polish war in 1654-1667 was not just between russia nad commonwealth, but cossacks, russia and PLC, along with it happening during and after swedish deluge(that ended with about 1/3 of plc population dying) and plc war with ottmans(Crimean khanate), after commonwealth was able to focus on Russia it reached stalemate.

Poland and Lithuanina seprately(more like togehter as they were long allies, and connected by marriages, were alone standing as european powerhouse, after Casmir The Great, Poland alone was only below HRE, France and castille in europe when it comes to power.

Thas why i mention the time table, Russia becomes important but ONLY after the Commonwealth looses majoirty of its power, its not until 1700 that Russia gaints upper hand over PLC, and starts its time as Great Power, i dont think it justifies Russia being one of 7 most important nations in 1337-1836 peroid when they are not even the most important/powerful nation in Eastern Europe before very late 1600s or early 1700s.

I dont deny importance of Russia, just that in the time frame of eu5 they simply historically are secondary power in eastern europe for about 330 years after the start of the game.

Edit: its just my opinon that Russia doesnt deserve to be 1 of 7 most important countries when there is already other country in region that was important for longer in time frame of game, especially as Russian peroid of importance started only in what would be considered late game.​

 

[Pirat6662001]

Thas why i mention the time table, Russia becomes important but ONLY after the Commonwealth looses majoirty of its power, its not until 1700 that Russia gaints upper hand over PLC, and starts its time as Great Power, i dont think it justifies Russia being one of 7 most important nations in 1337-1836 peroid when they are not even the most important/powerful nation in Eastern Europe before very late 1600s or early 1700s.

I would disagree because this ignored the ongoing colonization efforts in Siberia since Ivan IV. That creates significant momentum for the country long term. vs PLC is relatively stagnant and limited in potential. (Without going into Alt History)

 

[Madislak5]

View attachment 1305290

Wrong war

 

[Avlakim]

Wrong war

I know, but the fact that it happened in 1512 shatters his "Poland was stronger from 1337 up until Peter the Great" narrative.

 

[Dunadan60]

I think that, even if its not a carbon copy, there should be heavy flavor overlap. Any content for a fictional nation of Ruthenia would be inherently alt-history, and if anything my fear is that Ruthenia would just have a small token flavor that ends by midgame. It has a lot more in common with Russia than Spain and France as in your conquistador comparison.

There may be some overlap (where there is historical basis for this), but overall Ruthenia has a very rich and diverse history of its own during the game period. It would be good to see in the game, for example, a flavor related to the activities of the Ruthenian prince Kostiantyn-Vasyl Ostrozkyi, who founded the Ostroh Academy (1576, the first East Slavic higher education institution), and the printing house where the Ostroh Bible (the first complete printed edition of the Bible in Church Slavonic) was published.

The history of the Zaporozhian Cossacks is very diverse. While the steppe Cossacks were particularly distinguished by their sea raids against the cities of the Black Sea coast of the Ottoman Empire, during the era of the Cossack Hetmanate in the 17th-18th centuries, education and culture flourished in the lands of central Ukraine under the patronage of the hetmans (Kyiv-Mohyla Academy, Ukrainian Baroque architectural style). Ukrainian Hetmanate figures had a noticeable influence on the development of education in Russia, in particular, the first higher educational institution in Muscovy (Slavic Greek Latin Academy) was founded by graduates of the Kyiv-Mohyla Academy.

 

[Madislak5]

I know, but the fact that it happened in 1512 shatters his "Poland was stronger from 1337 up until Peter the Great" narrative.

Well the war is against Lithuania, not Poland, right?

Edit: Poland might be mentioned as belligerents at the top, but the article doesn't mention any contributions to the actual war effort.

 

[Avlakim]

Well the war is against Lithuania, not Poland, right?

Did I not make the "Belligerents" part comically large enough?

 

[Retsu92]

I would disagree because this ignored the ongoing colonization efforts in Siberia since Ivan IV. That creates significant momentum for the country long term. vs PLC is relatively stagnant and limited in potential. (Without going into Alt History)

I am literally explaing why, if it was 1600-1836, i could agree, but considering irrelevance of russia during hundreds of years of the game, and it still being less powerful/important in easter europe in 1600s , i could not say they deserve the spot more then commonwealth.

"relatively stagnant and limited in potential"

for compraisons in 1600s PLC had about the same if not more people then Russia despite few times smaller land area.

And was still more powerfull then Russia during 1600s, severly stagnating only during 1700s due to Russian(and other powers) intervening in PLC politics.

This is still all beside the point, and colonisation into siberia had marginal effect on russian power, its core power was still in mainland russia, colonised territories had small and hostile population, and the land itself wasnt good, Siberia was never the strenght of Russia, just show of its strenght to hold this amount of land.

While also your comment ignores hundreds of years of history, in favour of about 140 years of Russian power in what would be EU5 endgame.

If we spoke about history at large, then yes Russia is more important then Commonwealth, but in the time frame of 1337-1836, commonwealth is simply more impactful.

its like speaking about Rome and Carthage, if we talk 7bc-2bc then in the whole timeframe Carthage is more important then Rome, despite loosing power in favour of rome in the last century of that time frame.

Until 1700s Russia was seen by western powers as semi-barbaric people, as Oriental power, throught most of that time russia was isolated, while commowealth had actuall cultural impact, model for religious freedoms and tolerance diplomatic ceremonies and such. Commonwealth also actually participated in european politics, and were treated as european great power by other nations in europe.

Polish language was also in Eastern Europe as lingua franca, language of diplomacy and nobility even in hungary many nobles spoke polish.

 

[Ratstranger]

Until 1700s Russia was seen by western powers as semi-barbaric people, as Oriental power,

Wonder how Ming Empire was seen

Can you show Russian units? Are they just Western unit models? And which models Golden Horde uses?

 

[High Speed Flying Gladius]

That's a lot of reforms giving progress to free subjects...
What about the... historical path?

You know; enserf, enslave, oppress, the usual.

 

[Retsu92]

View attachment 1305290

That literally different war, he was talking about Smolensk War, which is 1632–1634, and this war was between Lithuania and Russia, involvement of Poland was minimal(no battle participation only in name), in fact biggest reason why Union of Poland and Lithuania happened was Lithuanian inability to decisively fight Russia, as in this war despite winning battles they couldnt take back the land.

When someone disagress with what i say, it would be nice if they at least argued why Russia was actually more important in that time frame.

 

[Sirbab]

So, Russia could use it to colonize Mexico with it for example? That seems somewhat strange tbh. Maybe limit it to require a land connection to the capital or perhaps indeed a hard-lock to the Old World.

Honestly, it's just wacky enough to make me laugh.

 

[Fill8]

delete your account.

OK Lord Luc Mantear

 

[Madislak5]

Some inconsistencies between flavour text and game values:

Firstly: Why does the Kremlin event mention Lumber, while the building itself requires no lumber at all for either construction or maintenance?

According to wiki:

Dmitri Donskoi replaced the oak palisade with a strong citadel of white limestone in 1366–1368 on the basic foundations of the current walls; this fortification withstood a siege by Khan Tokhtamysh.

Thus the building should be either upgradeable as a feature (or done so by event)
The same should happen/be available again, once it's reconstrucited during Ivan III:

The Kremlin walls as they now appear were built between 1485 and 1495

Perhaps the artwork should change as well? Maybe some modifiers to portay the spiritual/administrative aspects, as you advance?
btw. I'm sure i've missed it somewhere, but what does the icons next to the hammer mean in the building tooltip? It's been bothering me for a while...


Secondly: I'd 2nd the point that Ivan Rurikovich's diplo stats should be the best stat - at least if you want to be consistent with the flavour text:

Guiding Muscovy through these complexities is Grand Prince Ivan Rurikovich, a leader keenly aware of the delicate balance required for survival under Tatar dominion. He has skillfully managed the principality's affairs through diplomatic initiatives and strategic alliances and now seeks to consolidate power and enhance Muscovy's standing within the Yoke, with aspirations to unite the Rus' land under one banner.

Thirdly: I Know nothing of the historical circumbstances (and thus it might just be Norse bias), but it seems weird that the Russkaya Pravda is described as "the main source of Old Russian Law" but is then only a Legal Policy, to me it also seems a little sparse compared to how pivotal it sounds in the description...

 

[Retsu92]

I know, but the fact that it happened in 1512 shatters his "Poland was stronger from 1337 up until Peter the Great" narrative.

Dishonest take, Poland wasnt involved in the war (only in name), btw literaly Lithuanina-Muscovite war.

Literally the reason why polish lituanian union was a thing, Lithuania wasnt able to keep its lands despite winning battles against Muscovy.

Bringing up case of Lithuanian-Muscovite war in no way does prove Russia being stronger then Poland and later PLC, the only time they won the war against PLC was during/after swedish deluge and cossack uprising which was devastating for PLC. even during this war 1654–1667 russia was defeated in the war despite PLC being massively weakened, PLC w as unable to pacify cossack loosing that land which joined Russia. Later

Russo-Polish "War" (1686) was just confirmation of the lost territories in previous war as PLC was unwilling to fight, there was still paid compensation by Russia, it was also major sign of Commonwealth decline.

I dont deny PLC losing power in late 1600s, but i wont accept Russia being called more powerful or important befere that unless someone gives actually good reason/argument for that

 

[25318:SpikySpike2005]

Yeah, I agree with that. I feel when you form Russia it shold be either Tsardom of Russia or Russian Tsardom. Then have decision or event based on Age of Absolutism (maybe need to have some advancements researched to be 'Western" enough for the name change, probably should also be possible to do only after Time of Troubles too) that changes name to Russian Empire.

In this case it should be named tsardom of the Rus, until westernisation and renaming to Russian empire, where the name Russia gradually phases out Rus.

 

[Kripik]

Smolensk war was lost by russia, and ended in treaty where russia accepts PLC control over Smolensk, and russo-polish war in 1654-1667 was not just between russia nad commonwealth, but cossacks, russia and PLC, along with it happening during and after swedish deluge(that ended with about 1/3 of plc population dying) and plc war with ottmans(Crimean khanate), after commonwealth was able to focus on Russia it reached stalemate.

Poland and Lithuanina seprately(more like togehter as they were long allies, and connected by marriages, were alone standing as european powerhouse, after Casmir The Great, Poland alone was only below HRE, France and castille in europe when it comes to power.

Thas why i mention the time table, Russia becomes important but ONLY after the Commonwealth looses majoirty of its power, its not until 1700 that Russia gaints upper hand over PLC, and starts its time as Great Power, i dont think it justifies Russia being one of 7 most important nations in 1337-1836 peroid when they are not even the most important/powerful nation in Eastern Europe before very late 1600s or early 1700s.

I dont deny importance of Russia, just that in the time frame of eu5 they simply historically are secondary power in eastern europe for about 330 years after the start of the game.

Edit: its just my opinon that Russia doesnt deserve to be 1 of 7 most important countries when there is already other country in region that was important for longer in time frame of game, especially as Russian peroid of importance started only in what would be considered late game.​

There was a lot of long-time wars between Muscovy/Russia and Lithuania and later Poland. Here a table for up to 16th century wars between them (In 17th century yes, Russia had problems and lost some wars, but that does not make Russia minor power). My argument here is that Russia played major role in Eastern politics even before late game

Date	Name of war	Enemy 1	Enemy 2	Results
1368—1372	1st Muscovite-Lithuanian war	Muscovy, Ryazan	Lithuania, Tver, Smolensk	Tie. Status Quo, Lithuania lost Tver as an ally
1406—1408	2nd Muscovite-Lithuanian war	Muscovy	Lithuania	Tie. Status Quo, Lithuania was not able to conquer Pskov (Muscovite vassal). Worth mentioning: After this war Russian historians and other Princes understood that Muscovy is reliable overlord, that helps even in the worst scenarios. Novgorod was scared from Muscovite power.
1487—1494	1st Russian-Lithuanian (strange) war	Russia, Crimea	Lithuania	Russian victory. Upper Oca principalities went to Russia. Russia renounces claims in Smolensk and Bryansk.
1500—1503	2nd Russian-Lithuanian war	Russia, Crimea	Lithuania, Livonian Order	Russian victory. Lithuania lost around 1/3 its territory. Lithuania acknowledged Ivan's title, sovereign of all Russia.
1507—1508	3rd Russian-Lithuanian war	Russia	Lithuania, Poland	Tie? Russia gives Liubech to Lithuania. Lithuania recognizes all Russian conquests during the previous war.
1512—1522	4th Russian-Lithuanian (Ten Years') war	Russia	Lithuania, Poland	Russian victory. Lithuania gives Smolensk to Russia.
1534—1537	5th Russian-Lithuanian war (war of Starodub)	Russia	Lithuania, Poland	Tie. Lithuania gains Gomel. Russia gains Sebezh and Zawolocze.
1558—1583	Livonian war	Russian Tsardom	Lithuania, Poland (later PLC), Livonia, Denmark, Norway, Sweden. (everyone partially)	PLC-Livonian Victory. Lithuania lost several battles, which led to signing PLC. Russia was not able to conquer Livonia, and suffered heavy economic crisis, which led in future to time of troubles.

Conclusion: Muscovy/Russia was not that weak as you think. Russia became detached from europe and "big politics" after Livonian war for like 50-100 years (as we count smolensk war lost). Don't forget that during that times Russia also fought Crimeans and Ottomans (After conquest of Golden Horde's clusters). Battle of Molodi is the brightest example to it. So: Muscovy/Russia was gaining territory the whole game period, but 17th century. I consider it as a major power