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Tinto Talks #65 - 28th of May 2025

Hello, and welcome to another Tinto Talks, the happy Wednesdays where we talk about Europa Universalis V!

Today, we will discuss the mechanics of Eastern Christianity religions. We have grouped them into three main religions: Orthodoxy, Miaphysitism, and Nestorianism. So, let’s start without further ado.



Orthodoxy

This is the overview of the Orthodox religion:
Orthodoxy Tooltip.jpg

This tooltip needs some more love, as we’re not showing all the mechanics of the religion. That’s because, as usual, please consider all UI, 2D and 3D art WIP.

This is the country panel of the religion:
Orthodoxy Panel.jpg

Countries of Orthodox religion in Autocephalous Patriarchates, which are a type of IO:
Autocephalous Patriarchates5.jpg

Autocephalous Patriarchates2.jpg

Autocephalous Patriarchates1.jpg

Autocephalous Patriarchates3.jpg

I’m taking here the Autocephalous Patriarchate of Constantinople, which has the custom name of ‘Ecumenical Patriarchate’, as an example.

And here you have the existing Orthodox Patriarchates in 1337:
Autocephalous Patriarchates4.jpg

Countries can Join an Autocephalous Patriarchate, if they’ve just converted to Orthodoxy; or, when they already belong to one, they can Change to a different one, or Create a new one:
Autocephalous Patriarchates Join.jpg

Autocephalous Patriarchates Change.jpg

Autocephalous Patriarchates Create.jpg

The Seat of an Autocephalous Patriarchates defines the Leader of this IO, which unlocks additional effects and actions:
Seat1.jpg

Seat2.jpg

Autocephalous Patriarchates Relocate.jpg

There are also some other blocks in the Autocephalous Patriarchate, as its Saints:
Saints.jpg

And Holy Sites:
Holy Sites.jpg

The main currency of the religion is Religious Influence, which already appeared in the Catholic TT:
Religious Influence1.jpg

Religious Influence2.jpg

You can do a few things with your Religious Influence. First, you can canonize a former ruler, making him a Saint:
Saints1.jpg

Saints2.jpg

Saints3.jpg

The benefits you get from the canonization scale with the ruler stats. So better to make sure that you want to canonize a truly memorable former ruler!

You can also call for a Synod in your country:
Synod.jpg

Synod2.jpg

Synod3.jpg

Synod4.jpg

Finally, there’s a unique type of work of art, Icons:
Icons3.jpg

These icons not only give a modifier to the location where they are, but also can be used in a ‘Periphora’ to another location:
Periphora.jpg

Periphora2.jpg



Miaphysitism

Miaphysitism is similar to Orthodoxy, with some differences. Here is the overview of the religion itself:
miaphysitism.png

Same as Orthodoxy, it also has the mechanics of Canonization and Autocephalous Patriarchates, with these ones being the Patriarchates present at start:
miaphysite patriarchates.png

However, most of these are actually empty due to being occupied by Muslim countries, with only Ethiopia remaining as part of the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Alexandria and the Armenian patriarchate as the only one containing more than one country.
armenian patriarchate.png

An integral part of each the Eastern Christians and their Patriarchates are their Tenets, defined in a series of laws:
Tenets1.jpg

Tenets2.jpg

The ‘Nature’ tenet is a hard–locked IO Law, that depends on each Religion:
Tenets3.jpg

composite nature.png

These Tenets can be changed, and there are multiple possibilites in each Law:
Tenets4.jpg



Nestorianism

There is no country having Nestorianism as its state religion at game start, but the religion is nonetheless still quite spread in some areas. Here is an overview of it:
nestorianism.png

nestorianism panel.png

Nestorianism also has its own holy sites:
nestorianism holy sites.png

And also its specific definition of the nature of Christ:
separate nature.png

A final remark on a common flavor for all these religions. First, they have their unique flavor monasteries:
orthodox monastery.png

miaphysite monastery.png

The modifiers are WIP, we want to make them somewhat different.

There's a Law in which you can define the policy of the relationship between the state and the religion:
Patriarchate Law.jpg

And that’s all for today! Tomorrow is Thursday, which means that we will publish a new ‘Behind the Scenes’ video, on Friday, we will discuss the Byzantine Empire in Tinto Flavour, and next Wednesday's Tinto Talks will be about Islam.

And also remember, you can wishlist Europa Universalis V now! Cheers!
 
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Will Kyiv-Pechersk Lavra be a unique building or some kind of Holy See? Since it was the most ancient and important East Slavic Orthodox monastery.
Don't you have an event about the establishing of Pochaiv Lavra in South-East Volhynia? The second biggest and second most important Ruthenian Lavra (monastery).
EDIT: I'll transfer my Ruthenian Orthodox buildings and WoAs suggestions here.
_________

My suggestions on possible Works of Art and unique buildings (ex-monuments in EU4) around Ruthenian lands. They are Orthodox-related, so please, consider adding them.

These I consider as must-have (I compare with WoAs of Novgorod):
KPLavra.jpg
Kyiv-Pechersk Lavra – Kyiv

Unique building – monastery

  • Founded in 1051
  • The most important and influential Orthodox monastery in the East Slavic lands
  • Should provide some Orthodox benefits, literacy, cultural tradition/influence, clergy power
  • Wiki page
Sophia.jpg
St. Sophia Cathedral – Kyiv

Work of Art – cathedral

  • Built between 1017 and 1037, survived the Mongolian invasion
  • The cathedral of Metropolitans of Kyiv
  • The most famous and important Kyivan cathedral
  • Wiki page
CathChernihiv.jpg
Transfiguration Cathedral – Chernihiv

Work of Art – cathedral

  • Built between 1030 and 1036 and survived the Mongolian invasion
  • One of the two oldest still existing Kyivan Rus churches (with St. Sophia in Kyiv)
  • Maybe even the oldest, could be build 1 – 2 years earlier than St. Sophia
  • Wiki page
VolVol.jpg
Dormition Cathedral – Volodymyr-Volynskyi (Volhynia)

Work of Art – cathedral

  • Built in 1160
  • Historic Volhynian eparchial cathedral and the 'heart' of Volhynian Orthodoxy
  • Wiki UA page
BlackMadonna.jpg
The Black Madonna – Belz (Volhynia)
a.k.a. The Black Madonna of Częstochowa

Work of Art – icon

  • A famous Byzantine icon created around the VI – IX centuries
  • Later became the Black Madonna of Częstochowa
  • Was transferred from Belz to Częstochowa by Władysław Opolczyk in the 1380s
  • Legends trace the icon's origin to Luke the Evangelist
  • Poland could have a DHE and transfer it to Częstochowa if they take Belz
  • Wiki page
Dorm.jpg
Dormition of the Mother of God – Kyiv

Work of Art – icon

  • It had been the main icon of the Kyiv-Pechersk Lavra for 900 years before being destroyed in 1941
  • It was brought as a gift by the Byzantine architects of the monastery in the XI century
  • The image shows one of the multiple later copies in a golden protective cover kiot
PVL.jpg
The Primary Chronicle (or Tale of Bygone Years) – Kyiv

Work of Art – writing/literature(?)

  • A chronicle of Kyivan Rus from about 850 to 1110
  • It is believed to have been originally compiled in or near Kyiv in the 1110s
  • The work is considered a fundamental source for the earliest history of the East Slavs
Pochaiv.jpg
  • There can be also a scripted dynamic event about Pochaiv Lavra around the XVI century in Kremenets
  • One of the three main monasteries (Lavras) of the East Slavic Orthodoxy
  • This could be a unique building with a bit weaker benefits as Kyiv-Pechersk Lavra


Optional Works of Art depending on how many of them you give to different countries:

Pantheleimon.jpg
Church of St. Panthelemon – Halych

Work of Art – church

  • Built in 1194
  • The only Halych pre-mongolian church that survived to this day
  • Wiki UA page
Kholm.jpg
The Kholm Madonna – Kholm/Chelm (Volhynia)

Work of Art – icon

  • An ancient Byzantine icon and the oldest now in Ukraine
  • Was reportedly brought from Kyiv to Kholm between 1223 and 1237 by the future King of Ruthenia Danylo of Halych
  • Legends trace the icon's origin to Luke the Evangelist so it was highly valued in the society
  • Wiki UA page
Fres.jpg
Church of St. Anna – Uzhhorod (Hungary)

Work of Art – church

  • The precise age is unknown, but estimated around the X – XIII centuries
  • Wiki UA page

Looking forward!
 
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Two questions.

1. So what's the difference between Orthodoxy and Miaphysitism? Both seem to have the same mechanics.

2. Can a non-Orthodox country takr control of a patriarchate like the Ottomans in 1453 when they appointed their own patriarch of Constantinople?
 
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How does the game intend to represent extraterritorial patriarchates such as Antioch and Jerusalem?
Will the hesychast controversy be portrayed in the game?
Has mount Athos got any unique flavor?
Can you give us more information about the alternatives for "Mask", "Essence", and "Person"?
Is there any flavor regarding the pentarchy?
What are "Christological debates"?
 
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If you free a tag with (I assume) Nestorianism as its main religion, like Assyria, does it become the sole member of a Nestorian Chrch IO? How does the AI handle it?
 
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Just added a final section with a couple of things that were missing, for those of you who came exactly at 15:00 to read it.
 
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Is there any content around the Hesychast controversy and its outcomes - and if so, can we see it?
Also, could you change the Miaphysite churches to their official name of Oriental Orthodox and 'Orthodox' to Eastern Orthodox? Miaphysitism is a doctrinal position, not the name of any church.
 
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I hope that some of these 'policies' could be changed only at the Ecumenical Synode where all the patriarchates and autocephalus churches participate.
And it should be very hard to gather all of them since it did not happen historically within the game time frame.

Also I would make it specifically impossible to 'destroy' or cancel four Ancient Patriarchates - Ecumenical, of Alexandria, of Antioch, of Jerusalem, since they were established by the Ecumenical Councils and survived through hard times till today.

1748437782355.png
 
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Do the saints give any bonuses or only the one time gain you get when you canonize them? What determines how much prestige and estate satisfaction you get from canonizing someone? Is it only their stats?
 
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How is the Christianization of Lithuania, the last major Pagan country in Europe, handled? As the head of the Orthodox church, is it possible to defy destiny and have them convert to Eastern Christianity instead, as almost happened in the OTL?
 
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@Pavía could you please show us the ecclesiastical territories of the Georgian Patriarchate? It should look something like this (excluding the north Caucasian parts, of course)

Thank you!

Georgian Bishoprics According to Prince Vakhushti.png


The church should be centred at Mtskheta, not Tbilisi.

"Armenia", led by the Zakarid dynasty, and Shaki, most likely led by Georgians, should be in the Georgian church IO. The Zakarids from Zakare's death on were Dyophysites, while the collateral branch of Ivane's descendants (the current rulers) were Orthodox since even before his death.

Additionally, the Georgian church should own buildings in Jerusalem, Athos, and Bulgaria, to represent the Iberian monasteries present there since the 11th century.

Finally, here are some Georgian rulers who should be sanctified in 1337:

 
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Can you give more details about how the tenets can change ? Is it only through a synod ? Are there other ways ? Also, is there an effect to being "oecunemical" or is it only a flavour name for some existing patriarchate ? Can member of an oecunemical patriarchate still impact the tenets and the synods or are they pure spectator ?

Overall the mechanism looks great I have to say.
 
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1748438065365.jpeg

The description of this icon talks about the monastery its in, which is kind of weird if you move the icon to another location. Does the monastery move with it..?

1748437997950.jpeg

Cool feature, but ”throw a periphora/procession” sounds weird. Wouldn’t ”organize a periphora” sound better?
 
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