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Tinto Talks #65 - 28th of May 2025

Hello, and welcome to another Tinto Talks, the happy Wednesdays where we talk about Europa Universalis V!

Today, we will discuss the mechanics of Eastern Christianity religions. We have grouped them into three main religions: Orthodoxy, Miaphysitism, and Nestorianism. So, let’s start without further ado.



Orthodoxy

This is the overview of the Orthodox religion:
Orthodoxy Tooltip.jpg

This tooltip needs some more love, as we’re not showing all the mechanics of the religion. That’s because, as usual, please consider all UI, 2D and 3D art WIP.

This is the country panel of the religion:
Orthodoxy Panel.jpg

Countries of Orthodox religion in Autocephalous Patriarchates, which are a type of IO:
Autocephalous Patriarchates5.jpg

Autocephalous Patriarchates2.jpg

Autocephalous Patriarchates1.jpg

Autocephalous Patriarchates3.jpg

I’m taking here the Autocephalous Patriarchate of Constantinople, which has the custom name of ‘Ecumenical Patriarchate’, as an example.

And here you have the existing Orthodox Patriarchates in 1337:
Autocephalous Patriarchates4.jpg

Countries can Join an Autocephalous Patriarchate, if they’ve just converted to Orthodoxy; or, when they already belong to one, they can Change to a different one, or Create a new one:
Autocephalous Patriarchates Join.jpg

Autocephalous Patriarchates Change.jpg

Autocephalous Patriarchates Create.jpg

The Seat of an Autocephalous Patriarchates defines the Leader of this IO, which unlocks additional effects and actions:
Seat1.jpg

Seat2.jpg

Autocephalous Patriarchates Relocate.jpg

There are also some other blocks in the Autocephalous Patriarchate, as its Saints:
Saints.jpg

And Holy Sites:
Holy Sites.jpg

The main currency of the religion is Religious Influence, which already appeared in the Catholic TT:
Religious Influence1.jpg

Religious Influence2.jpg

You can do a few things with your Religious Influence. First, you can canonize a former ruler, making him a Saint:
Saints1.jpg

Saints2.jpg

Saints3.jpg

The benefits you get from the canonization scale with the ruler stats. So better to make sure that you want to canonize a truly memorable former ruler!

You can also call for a Synod in your country:
Synod.jpg

Synod2.jpg

Synod3.jpg

Synod4.jpg

Finally, there’s a unique type of work of art, Icons:
Icons3.jpg

These icons not only give a modifier to the location where they are, but also can be used in a ‘Periphora’ to another location:
Periphora.jpg

Periphora2.jpg



Miaphysitism

Miaphysitism is similar to Orthodoxy, with some differences. Here is the overview of the religion itself:
miaphysitism.png

Same as Orthodoxy, it also has the mechanics of Canonization and Autocephalous Patriarchates, with these ones being the Patriarchates present at start:
miaphysite patriarchates.png

However, most of these are actually empty due to being occupied by Muslim countries, with only Ethiopia remaining as part of the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Alexandria and the Armenian patriarchate as the only one containing more than one country.
armenian patriarchate.png

An integral part of each the Eastern Christians and their Patriarchates are their Tenets, defined in a series of laws:
Tenets1.jpg

Tenets2.jpg

The ‘Nature’ tenet is a hard–locked IO Law, that depends on each Religion:
Tenets3.jpg

composite nature.png

These Tenets can be changed, and there are multiple possibilites in each Law:
Tenets4.jpg



Nestorianism

There is no country having Nestorianism as its state religion at game start, but the religion is nonetheless still quite spread in some areas. Here is an overview of it:
nestorianism.png

nestorianism panel.png

Nestorianism also has its own holy sites:
nestorianism holy sites.png

And also its specific definition of the nature of Christ:
separate nature.png

A final remark on a common flavor for all these religions. First, they have their unique flavor monasteries:
orthodox monastery.png

miaphysite monastery.png

The modifiers are WIP, we want to make them somewhat different.

There's a Law in which you can define the policy of the relationship between the state and the religion:
Patriarchate Law.jpg

And that’s all for today! Tomorrow is Thursday, which means that we will publish a new ‘Behind the Scenes’ video, on Friday, we will discuss the Byzantine Empire in Tinto Flavour, and next Wednesday's Tinto Talks will be about Islam.

And also remember, you can wishlist Europa Universalis V now! Cheers!
 
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Why is it called miaphysitism? If we’re grouping religions based on christology you might as well make Catholics and orthodox one religion called “diophysite.” IMO it should be called Oriental Orthodox
Nestorianism is also grouped based off Christology, also, mods for CK2/3 that are pre-Great Schism usually just call it "Chalcedonian." So not that absurd
 
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It sounds like you won't be able to restore the pentarchy as byzantium unless you release an independent nation in each pentarch seat.
 
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There are also some other blocks in the Autocephalous Patriarchate, as its Saints:

And Holy Sites:
As there are so many Rurikovich Saints, more saints should be added to other prominent Orthodox countries - sanctification was VERY common in Orthodoxy, with all Serbian Nemanjić rulers bar Dušan being saints, which is why they're called the 'Holy Dynasty' in Serbia.

The most notable ones that need to be added are Stefan Nemanja (their founder, later became a monk on Athos and is an important saint) and his son Saint Sava (the founder of the autonomous Serbian church and the most important saint in Serbia)


Others include Stefan the First Crowned (also addicted and became a monk shortly before death), his sons Radoslav (spent much of his life as a monk) and Uroš, as well as Uroš's sons Dragutin (also spent much of his later life as a monk) and Milutin (a famed monastery builder, with over 40 significant ones built)

I remember from the streams that Peć becomes a Holy Site when the Patriarchate is founded, so I believe that Žiča should have a minor Holy Site representing Žiča and Studenica, seats of the church and already present as artworks

Another minor Holy Site could be represented in Gradac location, the Ovčar Kablar gorge, one of the two Serbian regions compared to Mount Athos due to its density of monasteries, starting from the early 14th century

The other (and more famous one) is Fruška Gora, which can be founded by event if Serbia acquires Syrmia or falls to the Turks.

Other prominent Orthodox Holy Sites in the Balkans include Rila in Bulgaria (already present in 1337 and later expanded), Ohrid (very prominent religious center for Greeks, Bulgarians and Serbs), Meteora (founded a few decades after 1337) and much later Ostrog and Cetinje in Montenegro.
 
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Great info, @Pavía ! I know others are asking about various possibilities surrounding mending the East/West Schism, but I'd like to ask a slightly more focused question: will there be an option for 'Union of Brest' style of restoring Communion between various Autocephalous churches and the Catholic Church? I'm not really sure how best to represent it mechanically, but I know the topic has come up already, so I'm sure someone has suggested something workable. I'll note that, of the 23 Eastern Rite Catholic Churches in existence, about half (depending on how you want to count them) came into Communion with Rome during the game's time period.

There's flavor content about mending the Schism in both ways - Roman Catholicism triumphant in Constantinople, and Greek Orthodoxy triumphant in Rome.

Not quite what I was asking about, but I would like to see an opportunity to this to be done piecemeal, which is the historical path, more or less. Of course, if, say, there were serious successes against the Turks after the Council of Florence, then perhaps it would happen all at once...
 
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Again, here it's less extreme than with buddism but the tenets kinda give magical bonuses that are not related to the actual tenet. Would it be possible for tenets to have much more of an effect on societal values and relationships with other religions.
For example, the tenets on the nature of christ could simply have an effect on your relationship with other christian country based on their vision of the nature of christ (and maby some other bonuses only if they are logical and justified)
Liturgical practices could have an impact on the spiritualist societal value instead of an impact on legitimacy which seems out of place and unjustified
 
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The description of Nestorianism (Which really should be called Assyrian/East Syriac) posted, much like the description of Nestorianism in CK3, fundamentally misunderstands the Christological disputes in question. The Council of Ephesus did not condemn the belief that Christ had two natures. This is the standard Dyophysite position held by Catholics, Orthodox, "Nestorians", and most Protestants. Nestorius was condemned by Ephesus for allegedly teaching that Chris was two persons, one human and one divine (as well as for some controversial Mariological teachings). There are some differences between the "Nestorian" and Catholic/Orthodox positions on how Christ's two Natures actually relate to each other (Prosopic vs Hyperstatic Union), but to present Dyophysitism as a uniquely "Nestorian" belief is to misrepresent both Syriac Christianity as well the Catholic/Orthodox Churches as well.
 
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Hello i have some other issue Do protestant churches have religious tenet policies? Do you as leader of church set them?
No, they have Church Aspects instead.
 
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The description of Nestorianism (Which really should be called Assyrian/East Syriac) posted, much like the description of Nestorianism in CK3, fundamentally misunderstands the Christological disputes in question. The Council of Ephesus did not condemn the belief that Christ had two natures. This is the standard Dyophysite position held by Catholics, Orthodox, "Nestorians", and most Protestants. Nestorius was condemned by Ephesus for allegedly teaching that Chris was two persons, one human and one divine (as well as for some Mariological teachings). There are some differences between the "Nestorian" and Catholic/Orthodox positions on how Christ's two Natures actually relate to each other (Prosopic vs Hyperstatic Union), but to present Dyophysitism as a uniquely "Nestorian" belief is to misrepresent both Syriac Christianity as well the Catholic/Orthodox Churches as well.
The description imo actually seems to be written to avoid this, it's just difficult to describe how Dyphostitism differs from Nestorianism. If they wanted to avoid the problem they could just mention the God-bearer controversy, but seems fine to me
 
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Great work!

One question, if we, for example, as Byzantium conquer and annex Serbia who had autocephalus patriarchate, what happens with AP of Serbia, and do all orthodox people from Serbia automatically become followers of Ecumenical Patriachate of Constantinople?
 
The description imo actually seems to be written to avoid this, it's just difficult to describe how Dyphostitism differs from Nestorianism. If they wanted to avoid the problem they could just mention the God-bearer controversy, but seems fine to me

Personally I think the theological differences are less important than the political ones and mentioning the history of the Persian Church/Church of the East and its missionary activities would be much more informative. A brief "split from the Western Church due to their support for the controversial Bishop Nestorius" really would suffice,
 
As unlikely as it would have been in EU5's time period, is it possible to mend the schism with Rome somehow?
There's flavor content about mending the Schism in both ways - Roman Catholicism triumphant in Constantinople, and Greek Orthodoxy triumphant in Rome.
 
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Is the cost to canonize a character fixed? That option usually feels a bit gamey since you can always "buy" sainthood for your rulers. It will feel better if certain character traits are prerequisites or at least affect the price. So, if my ruler started multiple wars against countries of the same religion (even the religious leader) I can't just purchase sainthood as if nothing has passed.
 
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I think this topic has already been discussed at some point, but it is still weird to me that secular rulers are displayed in the Patriarchate view instead of, you know, Patriarchs... I suppose it is simpler that way but can't they be generated randomly or semi-randomly? It would make more sense to show the "actual leader" of the church even if it's the player who is actually pulling the strings.
 
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View attachment 1308333
Are we getting other Tinto Talks for the remaining Christian branches? Like does Strigolnichestvo have any content?
No. As you see, we have some additional branches/heresies represented, but they aren't very different from their 'mother' religions, and just use some of the 'building blocks' that have already been presented in the different Christian-related Tinto Talks.
 
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Is the cost to canonize a character fixed? That option usually feels a bit gamey since you can always "buy" sainthood for your rulers. It will feel better if certain character traits are prerequisites or at least affect the price. So, if my ruler started multiple wars against countries of the same religion (even the religious leader) I can't just purchase sainthood as if nothing has passed.
Bonus point that you could try to reach for sainthood only if you have at least a decent life, I'd wholeheartedly support making sainthood more of a "oh nice, I can get it because my ruler actually qualify" rather than a "oh, I can spend religious mana to get myself a new saint"
 
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Have you considered making Patriarchates into theocratic building-based countries that then lead the IOs? This would also allow the patriarchates to exist within non-christian countries
 
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No. As you see, we have some additional branches/heresies represented, but they aren't very different from their 'mother' religions, and just use some of the 'building blocks' that have already been presented in the different Christian-related Tinto Talks.
Ok then what mechanics do Strigolnichestvo, Krstjani, Bogomils and Paulicians use?
 
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