Tinto Talks #65 - 28th of May 2025

[Dsingis]

I think Dyophysitism is Composite Nature, Single Nature Monophysitism (though I'm not sure what religion has this), Dual Nature Miyaphisitism, and Seperate Nature Nestorianism.

No, if you read the flavor text of the Composite Nature screenshot, that is Monophysitism. Two natures combined into one nature, fully fivine. That view says the divine nature basically got "changed" by "absorbing" the human nature. A "composite" so to say of two materials.
The Hypostatic Union does not say two natures get combined into one. There are two distinct natures united, but not mixed in one person. Without confusion, change, division or separation. The best phrase from the four presented to describe this would be "Dual Nature".
Separate Nature is definitely Nestorianism, which leaves Single Nature, and that would describe Miyaphisitism the best, because they believe that the two natures of Christ get united into a single nature (as opposed to single person as Chalcedonians say) without confusion, separation or change. The difference between Miyaphisitism and the chalcedonian view is mostly a political one and splitting of words. But it's a distinction nontheless.

 

[emergentmage]

I really like these GUIs; they appear to be Solarized, which is a classic code color scheme that is supposed to be easier on the eyes. ...Maybe they covered this already in an earlier diary.

 

[matfer13]

I hope that Nestorians get their own menoasteries as well, since they had some

 

[Friedrich von Deutschland]

No, if you read the flavor text of the Composite Nature screenshot, that is Monophysitism. Two natures combined into one nature, fully fivine. That view says the divine nature basically got "changed" by "absorbing" the human nature. A "composite" so to say of two materials.
The Hypostatic Union does not say two natures get combined into one. There are two distinct natures united, but not mixed in one person. Without confusion, change, division or separation. The best phrase from the four presented to describe this would be "Dual Nature".
Separate Nature is definitely Nestorianism, which leaves Single Nature, and that would describe Miyaphisitism the best, because they believe that the two natures of Christ get united into a single nature (as opposed to single person as Chalcedonians say) without confusion, separation or change. The difference between Miyaphisitism and the chalcedonian view is mostly a political one and splitting of words. But it's a distinction nontheless.

Wait we can actually see the starting policies of the Ecumenical Patriarchate, and it’s Dual Nature. So yeah you got what you want, the flavor text might just be a bit off.

 

[Friedrich von Deutschland]

Well. I think (small) bonus for literacy for Orthodox is warranted. since number of clergy is one of the sources of literacy in this time period. Orthodox Church with powerful clergy, lots of monasteries with tradition of writing chronicles, life stories of saints etc fits the bill.

Another and probably most important source (any meaningful universal school system is either out of timeine or on a verge of it) is urbanization and similar processes, which are simulated by institutions and other mechanics. Though serfdom as a limiting factor should probaby also be counted in, but that's because it limits urbanization rather than affecting literacy directly.

The first case is better reflected by literally having more clergy and getting more monastery buildings, not a universal 5% to max literacy. Not to say this isn’t necessarily flavorful, I’m just not sure why Orthodox would get this bonus. Heck they don’t even write the Bible in common language at the start IIRC, it’s in Ancient Greek and Church Slavonic.

 

[NarcomancerPL]

Ladies and gentleman we got autocephaly in EU5 before CK3. Good, but bad. EU5 truly is Crusader Kings 4

 

[Oglesby]

I'm wondering why the developers chose to label it as 'primary religion' instead of simply 'religious tolerance.'

• Why is there a 'Primary Religion Tolerance' modifier on the religion tab, just below the liturgical language text?
• Does adding 'primary' actually help here, or is it just unnecessary?

If there were also 'secondary' or 'tertiary' religion tolerance values, the label would make sense—but if not, isn't this a bit confusing? It doesn’t clearly convey the meaning.
If there's no other category of religion tolerance, then using 'primary' seems redundant. Can someone shed some light on this?

I am not sure why they changed it (or sometimes have the old label) that this is 'Tolerance of the True Faith' (which ends up being bonuses to the primary religion, or more so able to counter act other negatives).

The other religious tolerances are in that same panel.
'Tolerance of Heretics' - within my religion group
'Tolerance of Heathens' - outside my religion group

 

[Augusto5991]

I’m once again asking for a reunion council like that of Florence for the possibility of reunion between east and west

 

[Antimonum]

A number of Bulgarian Saints are not shown in the picture and there seems to not be a lot of place in that screenshot to scroll down.

List of saints of Bulgaria in chronological order:

1. Saint Boyan (or Voin) Enravota (died 833). He is the older son of Khan Omortag, he never got to rule and died as a christian martyr.
2. Saint Tsar Boris (died 907) he christianized Bulgaria and was canonized on his death.
3. Saint Ivan Rilski (died 946) A hermit and holy man, who founded the Rila Monastery, canonized on his death.
4. Saint Tsar Peter (died 970) the son of Tsar Simeon the great and grandson of Boris, he was canonized because of his piety, right after his death.
Notice that 3 of the 4 early Bulgarian saints are part of the Krum Dynasty.

The Serbian Saints are also not all there. The biggest missing Saint of Serbia is Saint Sava.

 

[Normannus]

1. The three religions share some common building blocks, although not exactly the same. Orthodoxy is more based around the APs and the different interactions available, while Miaphysitism is more based around the different tenets that each AP has. We're currently how the Tenets work, because on the one hand, they could also be shared by Orthodoxy with some tweaks, but on the other, it makes for a better differentiation between both religions.

2. No, because an Autocephalous Patriarchate is an International Organization composed of the Orthodox countries that belong to it. But there are some consequences if Constantinople falls, as in real history:

View attachment 1308290
View attachment 1308291​

When the Ottomons took Constantinople, it did in many ways remain the seat of Orthodox Christianity in the region for a very long time, which looks like it may be lost when the Turks take the city from the Greeks. Would it be possible to have an event which, on a Turkish conquest of Byzantium, spawn in an Orthodox building-based country centered in Constantinople which would represent the Constantinople Patriarchate to lead the IO?

 

[Friedrich von Deutschland]

When the Ottomons took Constantinople, it did in many ways remain the seat of Orthodox Christianity in the region for a very long time, which looks like it may be lost when the Turks take the city from the Greeks. Would it be possible to have an event which, on a Turkish conquest of Byzantium, spawn in an Orthodox building-based country centered in Constantinople which would represent the Constantinople Patriarchate to lead the IO?

I like the idea that the patriarchates are BBCs. It would also make the Most Holy Synod special since it would go beyond subordinating the Patriarchate to the state, but instead abolish it entirely and absorb its powers. Regardless of if this should be standard practice though, I agree that Constantinople should get special treatment and create a BBC patriarchate head if Byzantium falls.

 

[I_have_no_ideas_for_name]

Maybe my it's too late to add my own lepta and it has already been discussed, but:
Rename the Kyivan Rus' Saints!
Currently they all bear the modern Ukrainian versions of their names, which feels a bit revisionist-y. You should use their actual Old East Slavic names (with academic romanization):
Ihor --> Igorĭ
Mstyslav --> Mĭstislavŭ
Mykhailo --> Mixailŭ
Volodymyr --> Volodiměr or Vladiměrŭ (Either is fine but the first one is in Old East Slavic and the second is from Old Church Slavonic)

Also, their dynasty name (which, btw, wouldn't be used in this fashion as a surname, they'd be using patronymics instead, but it's an understandable simplification) should similarly be changed from Riurykovych to Rjurikovič.

Also also, they weren't mere princes - their title was Grand Prince. This could be represented in-game by making them rulers of a higher-tier title than the current Principality of Kyiv. Something like The Rus' or maybe Ruthenia, and maybe you could even make it into a formable (pretty please)?

I assume the last saint we can't see in the screenshot is St. Olga of Kyiv? If so, her name would be spelled Olĭga.

Thanks / Дякую!

 

[IAmBecomeDeath]

It's been said many times and I agree with everyone. The 5 pentarch seats should be building based countries, or somehow be able to exist without individual nations owning the holy site.

As it currently stands, we can't restore the pentarchy as byzantium which is a common and beloved goal. Without releasing vassals in every pentarch seat it seems the only choice is to make every seat subservient to Constantinople which feels wrong.

 

[Just-a-Fox]

Ok... so a few notes. (Don't take them to seriously, these are just a ramble)

1. All Patriarchates of the Orthodox church are autocephalous — you don't need to specify it.
You need to specify autocephalia only when you are talking about independent churches headed by a lower rank — i.e., Metropolite or Archbishop (because there are non-autocephalous archbishoprics too).

2. Authocephalia is an extremely rare thing. Before the age of nationalism, only a few churches had acquired it, and only the Russian Church had declared it unilaterally (and it took almost a century to acquire de jure recognition of independence) — the rest were granted autocephaly by their mother-church. It took a near incorporation of the Orthodox church into the Catholic one and nearly led to schism between Moscow and Constantinople. So I'm not sure if pressing a button is a good way to represent these relations.

3. Each orthodox church has its canonical jurisdiction — i.e., the territory where it can establish churches and new missions (except the Ecumenical Patriarchate that claims to hold in its jurisdiction everything not specifically allocated to other churches). These "church borders" may cross the borders of a country or may stay split a single one — the Ottoman Empire, for example, was divided between 4 orthodox churches: Alexandrian (which claims entire african continent), Antiochian (which claims Syria, Iraq and Iran), of Jerusalem (which holds Arabian peninsula, Palestine & Sinai) and Constantinople (with Anatolia and the rest).
Overstepping these boundaries can lead to a conflict between churches. All that is to say that maybe you shouldn't base church borders on the country borders.

4. Where are Old Believers? For 17th-century Russia, the Old Believer movement was a major event that created well... "dissidents" almost as hostile to any expression of the state as any other generational dissident — not paying taxes & rebellions included (as well as colonization of outreaches to escape the persecution). And in case you are wondering — no, old believers aren't "just another" orthodox church, they are more of the "russian protestants" and vary from slightly different, but recognizably orthodox, to "Amish, but Siberian".
They (or some of them) also have some form of Mutual credit that created a lot of famous merchant families among the old-believers (Rybushinskiy is perhaps the most famous one)

5. Where are Uniates? It's fun to play tag of war with Catholics. And come on now, don't tell me that a religion that has a tolerance of true faith, but bonuses for another, is not a fun thing to try?

 

[jman2417]

I’m not sure if this is something that’s already been asked and answered; but can only rulers become saints or are other ‘characters’ of lesser rank also elligable for sainthood?

And if not, are there any non-ruler saints generated by events through the course of the game?

 

[Ratstranger]

4. Where are Old Believers? For 17th-century Russia, the Old Believer movement was a major event that created well... "dissidents" almost as hostile to any expression of the state as any other generational dissident — not paying taxes & rebellions included (as well as colonization of outreaches to escape the persecution). And in case you are wondering — no, old believers aren't "just another" orthodox church, they are more of the "russian protestants" and vary from slightly different, but recognizably orthodox, to "Amish, but Siberian".
They (or some of them) also have some form of Mutual credit that created a lot of famous merchant families among the old-believers (Rybushinskiy is perhaps the most famous one)

Schism (Russian as a reaction to Patriarch Nikon's reforms) will be in the game.

Conserning Old Believers, I don't think it's possible to represent in the game sheer diversity of various Old Believer groups. Plus really odd ones are usally bezpopovtsy or "ones without priest" (since they believe priests must be consecrated by proper church authority wich doesn't exist after Nikon), so they typically are disorganized sects, hardly described by game's systems at all. Popovtsy or ones with priests are similar enough to Orthodox Church probably so they can fit as a single alternative church/heresy.

But It would be great to have events about them. such as a massive self-burning mania wave where literally tens of thousands of people burned themselves to death, or Old Believers reaction to Peter the Great, calling him Antichrist and taking him very adversarialy.

By the way, I noticed that The Most Holy Synod is not an event for Russia but a setting for Patriarch authority for any Orthodox country, which is cool (In short, it was the Peter's idea to replace Patriarch with completely secular sort of "Ministry of Orthodox Faith" completely running the church, led by by civilan official named "ober-procurator").

 

[joe9594]

I hope there is a "canonfodder" achievement for canonising a truly terrible ruler.

 

[Kotyk-durkotyk]

Ihor --> Igorĭ
Mstyslav --> Mĭstislavŭ
Mykhailo --> Mixailŭ
Volodymyr --> Volodiměr or Vladiměrŭ (Either is fine but the first one is in Old East Slavic and the second is from Old Church Slavonic)

With all due respect to the scientific background, there are two major issues here: consistency and the impossibility of correct pronunciation for ordinary people.

• These princes are probably assigned to the Ruthenian culture, which has its own language, dialect, and naming system. For your suggestion, another culture would be needed, solely for a few deceased princes. I specifically looked at Catholic saints, and their names are written in modern languages – for example, Edward, Edgar, Louis, not Ēadweard, Eadgar, Loois – even though they lived in times of Old English and Old French. This is simply a universal approach.
• The second issue is that 99.999% of players will not correctly understand or pronounce this transliteration system, not even East Slavic users. This is a specific system to transliterate a dead language and sounds (reduced vowels) that have not existed for 900 years already. I am absolutely sure everyone will read them as Miksailu and Mistislavu, that is quite far from what it shoud be. Standard transliteration is much closer to the original in all 3 East Slavic languages.

Hence, if other languages use modern spelling, then I want the same approach for all East Slavic languages. There are canonised princes from Polotsk, Novgorod, and Vladimir-Suzdal as well, so they should have modern-day Belarusian and Russian spelling too. So it's not only about Ukrainian.

 

[rawislon03]

Yes

In Mongolia and China, yes.

Probably ambitious to think this will get a response, but would it be possible to convert the Chagatai to Nestorianism via event or decision? I'm not sure on the specific day and month of his deposition but I vaguely remember him being a Nestorian before being murdered in a coup.

 

[Ratstranger]

With all due respect to the scientific background, there are two major issues here: consistency and the impossibility of correct pronunciation for ordinary people.

• These princes are probably assigned to the Ruthenian culture, which has its own language, dialect, and naming system. For your suggestion, another culture would be needed, solely for a few deceased princes. I specifically looked at Catholic saints, and their names are written in modern languages – for example, Edward, Edgar, Louis, not Ēadweard, Eadgar, Loois – even though they lived in times of Old English and Old French. This is simply a universal approach.
• The second issue is that 99.999% of players will not correctly understand or pronounce this transliteration system, not even East Slavic users. This is a specific system to transliterate a dead language and sounds (reduced vowels) that have not existed for 900 years already. I am absolutely sure everyone will read them as Miksailu and Mistislavu, that is quite far from what it shoud be. Standard transliteration is much closer to the original in all 3 East Slavic languages.

Hence, if other languages use modern spelling, then I want the same approach for all East Slavic languages. There are canonised princes from Polotsk, Novgorod, and Vladimir-Suzdal as well, so they should have modern-day Belarusian and Russian spelling too. So it's not only about Ukrainian.

On this whole old princes debate: problem is there was no separation for "Ruthenian" or "Russian" culture at that time period. In fact, lot of princes moved around throughout their life. Both Vladimir the Great and Mstislav the Great (and many others. since being prince of Novgorod was a typical position fo heir) were princes of Novgorod before they become princes of Kiev, so to claim they are Ruthenians because they ended up there since it was capital city is pretty weird in my opinion. And after that we got whole rota/lestviitsa system with everyone moving around a lot. So giving them names based on in which country this city they ended up ruling ended up after USSR dissolution is again really weird.

So unified culture based for princes of that period woud be nice for consistency, but yes, would be nightmare from the point of reading/prononciation. I don't see clear winner option here.