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Tinto Flavour #23 - 30th of May 2025

Hello, and welcome one more Friday to Tinto Flavour, the happy days in which we take a look at the flavour content of Europa Universalis V!

Today, a day after an infamous anniversary, we will be taking a look at the Byzantine Empire - or Eastern Roman Empire, as you’re free to pick the custom name you prefer for it, as it’s a game rule that you can set before starting the game:
Game Rule Byzantium.png

Game Rule Eastern Roman Empire.png

Let’s now start with the content itself:

Once a proud Empire that stretched from Egypt and the Levant to Iberia and Italy, Byzantium now faces a decadent period that began almost three centuries ago. During his reign, Emperor Andronikos II Palaiologos saw fit to dissolve several key institutions, such as the Navy, in an attempt to save the dying economy of the country, while the Theme System continued to be a shadow of what it was, as the Empire lost territory across all fronts.

His successor, Emperor Andronikos III Palaiologos, is now faced with the difficult task of safeguarding what remains of our once-glorious Empire. To our east, the Ottomans have started amassing a large army to wipe out our remaining holdings in Anatolia, threatening to set foot across the straits. At the same time, King Stefan Uroš IV Dušan Nemanjić eyes Thessaloníki and Northern Epirus like a vulture. Meanwhile, our treasury runs dry of precious coin, and the country may yet be thrown into a perilous civil war, as the family of our Emperor conspires with the Dynatoí behind closed doors.

Country Selection.png

Country Tooltip.png

As usual, please consider all UI, 2D and 3D art WIP.

Byzantium1.png

Eastern Roman Empire1.png

As I don’t want to spark yet another Byzantine discussion, and its subsequent civil war, here you have a couple of map screenshots, with a different country name option each!

Byzantium (which is the name that I will use from now on, as being the most commonly used by the community) starts with a bunch of reforms and privileges:
Estates.png

Most of the Estate Privileges are generic ones, but there’s a unique one for each estate. We will show them in a later section of the TF, as they’re related to the Byzantine Succession Crisis, a disaster that may happen to Byzantium early on.

Regarding the starting reforms, the first is a generic one, while the other two are unique ones:
Reform Autocracy.png

Reform Theme System.png

Building Thema Headquarters.png

Reform Kritai Katholikon.png

Byzantium starts with a ‘State Patriarchy’ policy, as shown last Wednesday:
Policy State Patriarchy.png

And some other unique policies:
Policy Pronoia System.png

Policy Byzantine Law.png

It also has quite a bunch of starting works of art:
Works of Art1.png

Works of Art2.png

The Theodosian Walls are also represented through a unique building:
Building Theodosian Walls.png

Byzantium also has a bunch of advances; we are going to focus on the early-game, historical ones, as they also unlock some Byzantine unique units:
Advance Heart of Orthodoxy.png

Advance Late Cataphracts.png

Unit Byzantine Cataphracts.png

Advance Akritai.png

Unit Akritai.png

Advance Shield of the West.png

Cabinet Action Extensive Conscription.png

Advance Poikilia.png

Advance Expand Varangian Guard.png

Unit Varangians.png

Advance City Taker.png

Unit Modernized Helepolis.png

Let’s now move on to the narrative content for Byzantium. As I mentioned previously, a Succession Crisis is latent in the country, and that would historically lead to the Byzantine Civil War of 1341-1347, which allowed King Stefan Dusan of Serbia to occupy Macedonia and proclaim himself emperor, the Bulgarians to recover some borderlands, and seriously debilitated the country, making it easier for the Ottomans to gain a foothold across the Sea of Marmara, from Gallipoli.

We’re portraying this latent crisis and the general state of decay of the country by some starting privileges, plus some starting inflation, low funds and stability, etc.:
Privilege Corruption Nobility.png

Privilege Corruption Burghers.png

Privilege Corruption Clergy.png

Privilege Corruption Commoners.png

This situation will also spawn in your neighborhood a couple of months after the game starts, although we will talk more in detail about it next Friday:
The Turkish Threat.png

And it’s very likely that this disaster may end up triggering early after the start of the game, if you are not careful enough:
Succession Crisis.png

Succession Crisis2.png

Succession Crisis3.png

It is something we internally call Semi-Generic Disaster. This means that while it uses the texts, panel, etc. of the generic ‘Succession Crisis’ disaster, some countries have unique triggers, events, and content attached to it, so the player can experience similar, but different crisis. The Byzantine Succession Crisis is one of those, therefore.

Independent of whether the player succeeds or not in defeating the Succession Crisis, and not weakening much in the process, Byzantium has a bunch of Dynamic Historical Events:
Event Hesychasm.png


Event Decline Palaiologos Renaissance.png


Event Reforming Kritai Katholikon.png

Reform Reformed Kratoi Katholikon.png


Event Acritic Songs.png


Event Song of Armouris.png


Event Kosntantinos Armenopoulos.png


Event Center of Learning.png


Event Gemistos Plethon.png

Event Gemistos Plethon2.png

Byzantium also has some alt-historical events, one of the few exceptions we make in the game, to include some plausible content in case that Byzantium avoid its decadence…

… However you will have to find it by playing the game when we release it, as that’s all for today! As today is Friday, this will be the schedule for next week:
  • Monday -> Tinto Maps Feedback about the Steppes
  • Tuesday -> Tinto Flavour about the Golden Horde
  • Wednesday -> Tinto Talks about Islam
  • Thursday -> Fourth ‘Behind the Scenes’ video!
  • Friday -> Tinto Flavour about the Ottomans and the Rise of the Turks situation!
And also remember, you can wishlist Europa Universalis V now! Cheers!
 
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This exact argument happened in the previous Byzantine name thread, people could stay here for weeks upon weeks pointing out how this entire debate is silly and the "Basileia ton Romaion" crowd wouldn't care. They'll keep trying to "defend" the honor of a dead empire for god knows how long

Ok, seriously now - what's with the whole "defend the honor" thing?

I assume it's just a way to mock the opponents, nothing else, right?

How exactly people asking for historical name of the Roman Empire are different from people asking to change some Hungarian location name to a more historical one?
You can ask to change some town of "Lăpușnei" to "Lăpușna", but you can't under any circumstances, ask to change the "Byzantine" name? Why?

Are people posting their feedback when it comes to locations/characters/flags "defending honor" as well? Yes or no? And if no, then why you insist on saying that people who do the same when it comes to "Byzantines" are doing that?

Just pointing out how ludicrous is that repetitive use of "defending honor" argument.

9vp74b.jpg


(I mean it's Anakin, a guy who was raised by Jedi, spent almost all his life doing good things on their behalf and then suddenly wiped them out and slaughtered a bunch of kids because he had bad dreams, so everything is possible)
 
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But that's not what I'm saying, I'm saying that Paradox uses historiographic exonyms (Egypt, Khmer Empire, Tibet, Muscovy) around the world for the sake of recognizability and so there's no reason to believe they should change it because it's "more historical". They aren't being treated uniquely here.
You're right, they didn't go far enough. It should be Basileia ton Romaion.
 
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That's strange, because since that topic was brought here a year ago that's exactly what people argue - that "Byzantine Empire" is ahistorical and there are better, historical alternatives out there. "Eastern Roman Empire" is a most welcome upgrade, but it's also ahistorical at the EUV start date.

Going back to the Lutetian Kingdom:

It's like having "Lutetian Kingdom" as default name in the game. A bit disappointing, right? You've heard it's a cool game rooted in history, you love history and so on, but then you see this. "Lutetian Kingdom". Ok, there's a game rule which changes it, but it changes it from "Lutetian Kingdom" to "West Francia". Well, that's an upgrade, but I'm sure a lot of people would just look at it and think "that's cool, but why not just call it... you know... "France"? What's with the "Lutetian Kingdom" and "West Francia" in the first place, why they avoid the "France" name so stubbornly?"




That's cool, but how many of those Roman emperors were guys from foreign tribes, completely unrelated to Rome, "crowned" hundreds of miles away from Roman land?

Just because US presidents are elected it doesn't mean Russians can organize an "election" in their siberian village and claim they've just elected a legitimate US president among themselves just because 100 years ago Alaska was Russian, so they have a claim. It just... doesn't work that way.

It doesn't matter what pope or Charlemagne did. At all. People can sit in a circle and "crown" themselves whatever they want - king of Pluto, emperor of Lemuria, queen of Kentucky, but what does it matter and why should anyone take them seriously? They can explain it all day, try to passionately present their arguments as best as they can, cite various sources and pose as true legitimate kings, emprerors and queens, but that won't change anything in Kentucky or on Pluto.
I think the name "Eastern Roman Empire" is perfectly fine, as it emphasizes Roman-ness in terms of historical background, while also emphasizing the fundamental nature of the state: its power center was further to the east than the Roman Empire of the Classical period, being centered in New Rome AKA Constantinople rather than Rome itself, as well as the "otherness" of how it was viewed by Western Europeans as an oriental state. It works even without the presence of the Western Roman Empire.

"West Francia" would work as a historiographical term if there was some long-standing conflict between those in modern France and Germany as there is around the "Byzantine Empire."
 
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I've been looking forward to this one! I was gonna ask about what the content will be for Komnenian emperors of Trebizond to be the Byzantine emperors again so I'm glad to see a Komnenos be 4th in line for the throne. I'm guessing that's how we saw Sophia Komnenos in the Muscovy Tinto Flavor.
 
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We have now in this game some super cool and useful filters for things like this. For instance, if I select the Culture map mode, and then hover the Greek culture in the 'Culture' tab of the 'Society' panel, you can check that there are 3.6M Greek pops in the world, and how they're spread:
View attachment 1309586

Then, as it belongs to the 'Hellenic' culture group, you can hover it, and then in any of the cultures, like the 'Pontic' one, to check where you can find it:
As someone else already saids the amount of Albanians in Greece is way too litte. The issue of them being classified as a cxompletely different culture as Arvanites I already replied to Aldoron in the Balkan feedback thread so I will not engage it further here.

1328, 1332, 1336
John Cantacuzene:
Unruly Nomads
Pay Homage to the Emperor

"While the emperor was staying in Thessaly (2), the unruly
Albanians living in the Thessalian mountains appeared before him who, according to their tribal leaders, are called Malakasians, Buians and Mesarites and whose numbers reach 12,000. They paid homage to the emperor and promised to serve him, for they were afraid of being annihilated by the Byzantines at the onset of winter, living as they do, not in towns, but in the mountains and in inaccessible regions. Since they must abandon these regions in the winter due to the cold and snow, which falls in incredible amounts in such vicinities, they believed that they would easily fall prey to them."

Its one thing to make them only 11000 big even if its preety certain those werent all the tribes who lived in Thessalian mountains. Its another thing entirely to cut the number of albanians in half. Did the devs send a time traveller to confirm the byzantine chronicler miscounted the amount by a factor of 2.

Second point: The location of Devlois in modern day South Albania that Byzantium owns owns is way too underpopulated. In regards to all of South Albania it is way too underpopulated but only now here I can see that the albanioan population in Byzantium isnt even 5000 people when the province itself has 12000. This was one of themajor places people migrated from to Thessaly and Epirus permanently changing the ethnic makeup of the regions. The ethnic makeup of Albania didnt change despite the massive migrations southward since its a mostly agreed upon by historians that part of the reasons for the migrations was a overpopulation meanwhile in EU5 not even 5000 albanians live in this albanian majority location. Johan himself said everything about the game is about pops meanwhile here pops get removed from existence left and right for some reason. Will Greece get some special plague event that wipes out 80% of people instead of the regular 30-50% cause otherwise these numbers make no sense from a history and gameplay perspctive. There can never be any migration based demographic shifts when the people who were supposed to migrate dont even exist in the game as pops.
1748628027610.png
 
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I don't know if you read this far, but can you PLEASE give a map with rivers visible for the steppes review? Probably the region where they are most needed to provide the necessary geographical context...
 
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The description for the country itself could use a bit of work. Describing the Byzantines as having been in a "decadent" period for 300 years by 1337 completely ignores the century of prosperity under the Komnenians in the 12th century and then the recovery period of the Nicaean Empire under the Laskarids in the 13th century in the aftermath of the Fourth Crusade.
 
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But that's not what I'm saying, I'm saying that Paradox uses historiographic exonyms (Egypt, Khmer Empire, Tibet, Muscovy) around the world for the sake of recognizability and so there's no reason to believe they should change it because it's "more historical". They aren't being treated uniquely here.
This isn't about an exonym vs an endonym. That would be "Byzantine" and "Rhōmaîoi." This is a debate about two English exonyms, "Roman" and "Byzantine."

Most exonyms function as a translation for the endonym, so "German" reflects the same idea as "Deutsch." The English language already has an exonym to reflect the idea "Rhōmaîoi," which is "Roman." Unlike "German" or "Roman," "Byzantine" does not function as a translation of the people's exonym, rather it says they are some other thing. That confuses people as to what they were, and the change from using "Roman" to "Byzantine" is arbitrary and confusing both for laymen and for historiography. For example my parents were confused as they thought the Byzantines must have been some new people that conquered Roman territory due to the name change.

I just wanted to clarify that, but I probably won't comment any more on the debate here. We already have a whole thread for this topic and this thread would be better used for feedback on the flavor.
 
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Not sure if it was mentioned but can Byzantium somehow reinvent itself as Greece? Maybe by government type change or through later game nationalism? Or will Greece only be available if Byzantium fares badly, loses Constantinople, and has to start from scratch in Achaea/Morea/Peloponnesia as a releasable?
 
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"have started" you've been acting extremely passive aggressive this whole thread dismissing others as clowns and trolls, get off the high horse and pick up a history book
Welp, another one for the ignore list
 
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Not sure if it was mentioned but can Byzantium somehow reinvent itself as Greece? Maybe by government type change or through later game nationalism? Or will Greece only be available if Byzantium fares badly, loses Constantinople, and has to start from scratch in Achaea/Morea/Peloponnesia as a releasable?

I'm not an expert but if I had the claim to Rome I'd never let it go unless I got shot in the head by a turkish cannonball.
 
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We have an instance in which a woman character can be considered legally a male character, and thus, it can be applied to it the same rules. It's currently only used in the Hungarian content, but it's something that we can potentially expand to any other cases if needed.
Does that include marrying women
 
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I came out from lurking to say: AVE AVE GLORY TO ROME AVE AVE. Memes, aside can we have picture of the nation finances because Ludi mentioned the nation always seems to go bankrupt at game start.
 
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