Can you take Rome? And what happens if you do?

[BoleslavLev]

So, I vaguely remember reading that there will always be a pope, even if Rome is taken.

I wonder, why is the popre, or the catholic IO, special? I am sure other IOs are not immortal, why is the catholic church? Now, ok, it is big at the beginning, it completely collapsing is unlikely, but I find it a bit annoying that it is literally impossible.

I have a technical question connected to that - if you do take Rome, where will the pope spawn? Is it the same as in EU4 where he just takes over some random province? Also, hypothetically, what if there are no catholic provinces left in the world? Would then the IO cease to exist or would it still continues spawning holding a random province somewhere? Now, I think that sacking Rome or even evicting the pope for good should not necessarily lead to the IO ceasing to exist, but it would be nice to see it affecting it in some way in the future.

 

[lukesilveira]

Your statement seems to imply that other religious IOs aren't as resilient as the Catholic church, otherwise there wouldn't be a discrepancy from the Cathjolics to, say, Orthodox IO. Why do you think so?

 

[BoleslavLev]

Your statement seems to imply that other religious IOs aren't as resilient as the Catholic church, otherwise there wouldn't be a discrepancy from the Cathjolics to, say, Orthodox IO. Why do you think so?

As I said - I read that the pope will always exist. I did not read similar things for Golden Horde rule over Russia for example or for Konstantinople patriarchate or even the orthodoxy as a whole. Though it is possible that the religions are immortal and I just did not notice that. If so, I do disagree with that notion tbh, I think no IO should be completely immortal, even if many will be in the practical sense.

 

[JacceDON]

Secular power is not a prerequisite for a pope to exist, if the papal states are conquered I imagine that the pope (and as such the head of the IO) will hide in Castel Sant'Angelo or something like that. The pope is a concept as much as a person, and he is not primarily a ruler of land.

 

[Kvesir]

I believe IOs should dissolve if they have no members left or if some special case has been reached (like a dissolution of the HRE or PUs being broken).

In the case of IOs that represent religions I don't think there could be a special case for dissolving them, except of a transformation to another religion. So I think the IO of Catholicism could only be destroyed if no Catholic countries are left or if the schism with Orthodoxy is mended somehow. If you destroy the Papal States it should just become a building-based country in Rome (renamed to the Holy See perhaps. And if Rome isn't available, then in some other landed Catholic country).

 

[Deterock]

Pope is the head of the biggest religion in the game (and one of the biggest religions in the world). In 2000 years of Christian's history there was always a Pope. Theoretically you don't have to be even cardinal to be elected as a Pope (last non-cardinal Pope though was elected in 1378) and even a priest (in 1513 was elected Pope-cardinal that wasn't even a priest, son of Lorenzo de' Medici who started selling indulgences for the donations). So yeah, even if you capture Rome and all the theocratic countries on the map, there still might be a Pope. You'd have to get rid the catholics xD

 

[stryder593]

Rome had been sacked and conquered multiple times throughout its history, and the Pope still existed, including the 1500s and 1800s. The Vatican and Rome are two separate entities, which makes this possible.

 

[InvisibleBison]

Religion IOs definitely should continue to exist even if they have no remaining member nations, because they don't represent nations, but also pops. It seems a bit silly to suggest that the Catholic Church, for example, would cease to exist just because there are no more Catholic nations. After all, the church existed just fine for the first couple centuries without there being any Christian nations to support it.

 

[King_Potat]

Hmm, perhaps the papacy could go elsewhere? Lemme think... oh, Avignon seems nice this time of year! Let's do that!

 

[keaswaran]

Religion IOs definitely should continue to exist even if they have no remaining member nations, because they don't represent nations, but also pops. It seems a bit silly to suggest that the Catholic Church, for example, would cease to exist just because there are no more Catholic nations. After all, the church existed just fine for the first couple centuries without there being any Christian nations to support it.

Didn’t they even say that some of the orthodox Patriarchates exist without any countries at game start?

 

[InvisibleBison]

Didn’t they even say that some of the orthodox Patriarchates exist without any countries at game start?

Yes, Nestorianism:

 

[Borgratz]

Hmm, perhaps the papacy could go elsewhere? Lemme think... oh, Avignon seems nice this time of year! Let's do that!

This forum needs an excommunicate reaction!

 

[keaswaran]

Yes, Nestorianism:

Actually, looking back at it, they said there are no Nestorian countries, but there also seem not to be any Nestorian patriarchates at the start of the game. But for Miaphysite there are some empty patriarchates:

Same as Orthodoxy, it also has the mechanics of Canonization and Autocephalous Patriarchates, with these ones being the Patriarchates present at start:

However, most of these are actually empty due to being occupied by Muslim countries, with only Ethiopia remaining as part of the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Alexandria and the Armenian patriarchate as the only one containing more than one country.

 

[J_Master]

I wonder, why is the popre, or the catholic IO, special? I am sure other IOs are not immortal, why is the catholic church? Now, ok, it is big at the beginning, it completely collapsing is unlikely, but I find it a bit annoying that it is literally impossible.

Because it is a core differentiator that Catholics will always have a succesor to St. Peter. Yeah, sure, you can destroy the Papal State, but that's just the part of the world he is the secular ruler of. But that doesn't mean he'd stop being St. Peter's successor. There's plenty of times in the early timeframe of the game where Rome was in revolt and the Pope wasn't in controll, still doesn't mean that he quit his spiritual role. But yeah, the Catholic Church IO can be very reduced as well, just take a role at the Orthodox, Coptic and Nestorian church IO's. The Orthodox have multiple patriarchates and more can be created over the course of the game, the Copts have member tags but no patriarch seats occupied and the Nestorians have none of both, only pops that follow the religion. The Pope is just a in-game character, that doesn't mean the Papal State will always head the Catholic Church IO

 

[pheonicia]

I did have a suggestion about how to make a situation for the pope if protestants take over.

Ahistorical dynamic historical events

Part of the fun of playing paradox games is the alternate history aspect of changing the timeline, aka what if the holy roman empire managed to centralize or a unified Scandinavia in eu4, that players might have for their campaign as a goal...

forum.paradoxplaza.com

But I do hope it's not like ck3 where even after I had conquered the world and converted everything (modded game), I couldn't kick the pope out of my house. He just kept loafing around in Rome being upset at me, and every time I had him stabbed a new one would pop up like a weed.

 

[Azgabeth]

Hmm, perhaps the papacy could go elsewhere? Lemme think... oh, Avignon seems nice this time of year! Let's do that!

By the rivers of Babylon.

 

[treb]

Pope is the head of the biggest religion in the game (and one of the biggest religions in the world). In 2000 years of Christian's history there was always a Pope. Theoretically you don't have to be even cardinal to be elected as a Pope (last non-cardinal Pope though was elected in 1378) and even a priest (in 1513 was elected Pope-cardinal that wasn't even a priest, son of Lorenzo de' Medici who started selling indulgences for the donations). So yeah, even if you capture Rome and all the theocratic countries on the map, there still might be a Pope. You'd have to get rid the catholics xD

Technically speaking the Pope didn't exist before the great schism before that they were the patriarchs of Rome under the unified Nicene church. The designation of the patriarchs predating this as Popes is retroactive.

 

[Bestiliand]

You can form the Seven Hills Empire / Central Roman Empire (depends on the game rule)

 

[J_Master]

Technically speaking the Pope didn't exist before the great schism before that they were the patriarchs of Rome under the unified Nicene church. The designation of the patriarchs predating this as Popes is retroactive.

Oh no the Byzantiboos have come into this thread as well!

 

[Asaipuol]

In 1804, when Pope Pius VII went to Paris for Napoleon's coronation, he seems to have had a renunciation letter pre-written and left in Rome, effective if he were to be held captive in France. This is something the 1913 Old Catholic Encyclopedia deems "well known": https://en.m.wikisource.org/wiki/Catholic_Encyclopedia_(1913)/Abdication

I can't find reputable sources on this, but it has been alleged that Pope Pius XII had a similar proclamation written in case he was captured by the Nazis in 1943.

In both cases, the cardinals presumably had to find some secure place to hold a conclave and elect a new Pope. Portugal is often quoted as the likely place of choice for 1943.

This seems like an interesting basis for an event chain, that would trigger if an hostile power (eg Ottomans) would capture thecurrent Pope and/or take Rome.


Though we should note that while Pope Pius VII came back in good shape from his 1804-05 expedition, he was in fact detained by the French later on (1809-14), in Savone then in Fontainebleau. He was never considered to have resigned and kept his position until his death in 1823. So... I guess this could be another way things shake up?