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Tinto Talks #66 - 4th of June 2025

Hello, and welcome to another Tinto Talks, the happy Wednesdays where we talk about Europa Universalis V!

Today, we will discuss the mechanics of Islam. In EUV, it is considered a Religious Group, as Christianity or Buddhism:
Islam.png

As usual, please consider all UI, 2D, and 3D art WIP.​

As you see, three Religions compose the group: Sunnism, Shiism, and Ibadism:
Sunnism.png

Shiism.png

Ibadism.png

They share similar features, and then inside them is where we make the religious differentiation:
Islam panel.png

The first mechanic is Schools, an old companion from EU4, but that has been reworked in EU5:
Religious School.png

Muslim countries start with a School, which gives some modifiers:
Hanafi.jpg

As you can see, each School has a different view of the other. This is important because you can invite Scholars of Schools that are available for your branch of Islam, and also don’t have a negative opinion of your chosen School.

Because, yes, the old EU4 Scholars are also present in EU5, but they’re now inside a new category, the ‘Religious Figures’, which gives some more flexibility on how to use them:
Religious Figure.jpg

Scholar.png

Scholars are now characters that can travel through the Islamic world and be invited to work for you:
Invite Scholar.png

This unlocks the possibility to change the Main School of your country to that of the Scholar:
Change Main School1.png

Change Main School2.png

Change Main School3.png

In total, we have this number of schools, with some schools being available to more than one religion:
  • 10 Sunni:
    • Ḥanafī
    • Ḥanbalī
    • Mālikī
    • Shāfi'ī
    • Ẓāhirī
    • Ash'arī
    • Māturīdī
    • Aṯarī
    • Mu'tazilī
    • Wahhābī
  • 11 Sufi - Both for Sunni and Shia, except 3:
    • Bektashi
    • Chishtī (only for Sunnism)
    • Ḵalwātī
    • Mevlevi
    • Naqshbandī (only for Sunnism)
    • Qādirī (only for Sunnism)
    • Ṣafavī
    • Shāḏilī
    • Suhrawardī
    • Īsāwī
    • Dīn-i Ilāhī
  • 8 Shia:
    • Ismā'īlī
    • Ja'farī
    • Zaydī
    • Imāmīya
    • Nizārī
    • Musta'lī
    • Alevism
    • 'Alawī
  • 1 Ibadi:
    • Ibadi - only for Ibadi
    • It also has access to all the Sunni and Shia schools, but not the Sufi ones

The main currency for the religion is Piety, again a returning concept from EU4. Piety can go from a value of -100 to +100 (representing Mysticism or Legalism respectively), giving scaling benefits to the country depending on the direction.
Piety.png

Piety will be modified towards one extreme or the other mainly through events, although there are also some ways of adding a passive monthly tendency towards one direction, including privileges and cabinet actions. Another important aspect to mention regarding piety is the fact that to be able to invite a Scholar belonging to any of the Sufi schools, the country must already be leaning towards Mysticism.

There are a couple of actions in which the country can spend its piety to gain some benefits. A country can exchange piety for either stability or manpower, and both actions require being at 50 piety towards either direction, and move the value 40 towards the center.
Manpower Action.png

Stability Action.png

There is also the option to perform a pilgrimage to one of the Holy Sites, as long as they are owned by the country, an ally, or someone with good relations. Performing a pilgrimage will give a small increase in piety, as well as sending the ruler on a holy journey.
Pilgrimage.png

Another important aspect to mention is the fact that Muslim countries have access to some unique laws and policies:
Iqta Law.png

Nikah Policy.png

Shariah Law Policy.png

Implementing the Sharī'ah Law will unlock an extra law, the Sharī'ah Jurisprudence, with policies dependent on the country’s main school.
Shariah Jurisprudence.png

Finally, there are a couple of unique buildings available for Islamic countries:
Madrassa.png

Sufi Loge.png

And that’s all for today! Tomorrow is Thursday, which means that we will publish a new ‘Behind the Scenes’ video, and on Friday, we will take a look at the Ottomans and the Rise of the Turks situation!

And also remember, you can wishlist Europa Universalis V now! Cheers!
 
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So you can only have one religious school and you've grouped three different concepts into this mechanic?

That's a mistake. A School of Jurisprudence (Madhhab) is a different facet of faith to a theological school which endorses a creed (Aqidah) which is in turn a different facet from a Sufi Order (Tariqa). A person can follow the Hanafi school of Jurisprudence while being theologically Ash'ari and be a member of Mevlevi order.

I was really hoping for a more nuanced and interesting view of the faith that what's basically a slightly better version of EU4's portrayal. Even if you changed it to allow a separately endorsed Sufi order it would fail to represent the historical reality, as states often endorsed multiple. The Ottomans famously endorsed Rumi's Mewlewi order as part of state events, while the Bektashi order was popular among the Janissaries. Those are just two I think of off the top of my head.

My ideal would be to have you able to endorse a Madhhab and Aqidah separately (Where it makes sense - some are incompatible). I'd want Sufi orders similarly depicted to how you've depicted unlanded Catholic religious orders, with them as BBCs and able to exist on a sub-country level, and interacted with by the countries who own the locations their buildings are in. It opens up options for consistently portraying groups like the Safavid order, which can later come to control locations.

This just feels like EU4 mechanics have been ported to EU5, rather than making much improvement.
 
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Making schools of jurisprudence and schools of theology both under the same category of 'school' and thus replace one another is illogical, Muslim countries should have the option to pick one school of jurisprudence (Hanafi, Maliki, Zaydi, Jafari, etc) and one school of theology (Athari, Mu'tazili, Maturidi).

The Sufi Tariqas should not be a state level "school" selected like the above, rather they should provide province level modifiers if accepted, and you should be able to accept multiple Sufi schools at once.
 
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Idk I dislike the way we can spend piety to just get manpower or stability, I think it would be more interesting if it was a buff taht over time moves us -40 into eother direction while giving us the bonus over the ampunt of time.
 
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If you are the ruler of a Muslim country, do you decide whether to allow buying/selling/production of Beer and Wine goods in your realm, or is it forbidden by default?
 
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I see a serious problem in your depiction of "schools" which is mixing three separate categories of schools of fiqh (jurisprudence), schools of 'aqīdah (theology/creed) and sufi orders. These should not be mutually exclusive. For instance the Safavi order was originally a shāfi'i Sunni order and later became a ja'fari Shia order. And following a certain school of fiqh does not replace 'aqīdah nor vice versa, they are separate concepts.

There seems to be some confusion with the Shia schools too, as ja'fari is the school for imāmiyya aka twelver shias. And nizāri and musta'li are branches of ismailism, so you should choose between either having a unified ismailism by itself, or these two on their own.

Then wahhabi is not an official school at all but rather a movement largely within the hanbali school. It also didn't appear until the 1700s, long past the start date, and frankly wasn't very influential in the game period outside of Saudi Arabia. I don't think it should be included as a school, but rather could be an event chain or maybe advance for Najdi countries.
 
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Gurtannon said:
Hello, time has come

Do Safavid Order start as building based coutry in 1337? And what are the other flavour for Safavids?

Persia flavour already passed, so I think it is right time to ask for
Click to expand...
As you see, Safavid already starts the game as a school. Around the 1400s, if an Islamic country owns Ardabil, and has Safavid as its Main School, an event will trigger, creating a new country in that location, Ardabil, and allowing the player to change to it.
 
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Also I think Shari'ah law should be policy in every muslim country and depending on our schhol of jurisprudence it should change so there shouldn't be any muslim country without Shari'ah
 
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Also I am really not sure about alcohol being blanket banned for all Islamic countries. The precepts of sharia are one thing, the laxness of their application in society (especially before modern times) is totally another. I remember reading that Europeans described Hormuz as a place where drinking and other excesses were common. It looks like the Ottomans allowed it for non-muslims and just taxed it. It seems to have been prominent, if officially marginalized, among the Safavid, Mamluk and Mughal elites as well.
 
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Kotyk-durkotyk said:
  • Alevism
  • 'Alawī
Are these two really different schools?
Sorry for ignorance, I'm really curious.
Click to expand...
I assume Alevism is the one in Turkey and Alawi aka Nusayrism is one mainly in Syria(there are followers of it in Turkey too) and yes they are fundementally different.
 
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