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Tinto Talks #66 - 4th of June 2025

Hello, and welcome to another Tinto Talks, the happy Wednesdays where we talk about Europa Universalis V!

Today, we will discuss the mechanics of Islam. In EUV, it is considered a Religious Group, as Christianity or Buddhism:
Islam.png

As usual, please consider all UI, 2D, and 3D art WIP.

As you see, three Religions compose the group: Sunnism, Shiism, and Ibadism:
Sunnism.png

Shiism.png

Ibadism.png

They share similar features, and then inside them is where we make the religious differentiation:
Islam panel.png

The first mechanic is Schools, an old companion from EU4, but that has been reworked in EU5:
Religious School.png

Muslim countries start with a School, which gives some modifiers:
Hanafi.jpg

As you can see, each School has a different view of the other. This is important because you can invite Scholars of Schools that are available for your branch of Islam, and also don’t have a negative opinion of your chosen School.

Because, yes, the old EU4 Scholars are also present in EU5, but they’re now inside a new category, the ‘Religious Figures’, which gives some more flexibility on how to use them:
Religious Figure.jpg

Scholar.png

Scholars are now characters that can travel through the Islamic world and be invited to work for you:
Invite Scholar.png

This unlocks the possibility to change the Main School of your country to that of the Scholar:
Change Main School1.png

Change Main School2.png

Change Main School3.png

In total, we have this number of schools, with some schools being available to more than one religion:
  • 10 Sunni:
    • Ḥanafī
    • Ḥanbalī
    • Mālikī
    • Shāfi'ī
    • Ẓāhirī
    • Ash'arī
    • Māturīdī
    • Aṯarī
    • Mu'tazilī
    • Wahhābī
  • 11 Sufi - Both for Sunni and Shia, except 3:
    • Bektashi
    • Chishtī (only for Sunnism)
    • Ḵalwātī
    • Mevlevi
    • Naqshbandī (only for Sunnism)
    • Qādirī (only for Sunnism)
    • Ṣafavī
    • Shāḏilī
    • Suhrawardī
    • Īsāwī
    • Dīn-i Ilāhī
  • 8 Shia:
    • Ismā'īlī
    • Ja'farī
    • Zaydī
    • Imāmīya
    • Nizārī
    • Musta'lī
    • Alevism
    • 'Alawī
  • 1 Ibadi:
    • Ibadi - only for Ibadi
    • It also has access to all the Sunni and Shia schools, but not the Sufi ones

The main currency for the religion is Piety, again a returning concept from EU4. Piety can go from a value of -100 to +100 (representing Mysticism or Legalism respectively), giving scaling benefits to the country depending on the direction.
Piety.png

Piety will be modified towards one extreme or the other mainly through events, although there are also some ways of adding a passive monthly tendency towards one direction, including privileges and cabinet actions. Another important aspect to mention regarding piety is the fact that to be able to invite a Scholar belonging to any of the Sufi schools, the country must already be leaning towards Mysticism.

There are a couple of actions in which the country can spend its piety to gain some benefits. A country can exchange piety for either stability or manpower, and both actions require being at 50 piety towards either direction, and move the value 40 towards the center.
Manpower Action.png

Stability Action.png

There is also the option to perform a pilgrimage to one of the Holy Sites, as long as they are owned by the country, an ally, or someone with good relations. Performing a pilgrimage will give a small increase in piety, as well as sending the ruler on a holy journey.
Pilgrimage.png

Another important aspect to mention is the fact that Muslim countries have access to some unique laws and policies:
Iqta Law.png

Nikah Policy.png

Shariah Law Policy.png

Implementing the Sharī'ah Law will unlock an extra law, the Sharī'ah Jurisprudence, with policies dependent on the country’s main school.
Shariah Jurisprudence.png

Finally, there are a couple of unique buildings available for Islamic countries:
Madrassa.png

Sufi Loge.png

And that’s all for today! Tomorrow is Thursday, which means that we will publish a new ‘Behind the Scenes’ video, and on Friday, we will take a look at the Ottomans and the Rise of the Turks situation!

And also remember, you can wishlist Europa Universalis V now! Cheers!
 
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Imo army buffs should solely be coupled to piety or to an entirely different system (mysticism vs legalism). It is super weird that shias have higher moral by default. Like your pop converts and is automatically more motivated, which makes no sense at all.

I would say having a mysticist view should make you fight more motivated, whereas a legalist view should increase research progress (basically your piety, literally just change it to legalism and mysticism instead of magical -/+ 100 piety). So instead of having religious differences and treating them like some perk system, shia and sunni are treat more akin to different religions (similar but different) and you can decide which way society swings. I shouldnt be forced to change my religion in order to maximize army buffs.

The various schools could give different benefits. It is already in place. I see no reason to why being sunni/shia/ibadi needs an extra buff for just being sunni/shia/ibadi.

Tldr: Put the perks from sunni/shia/ibadi into the already existing systems. You are not a better trader/fighter by default, just because you are sunni/shia/Ibadi. That sounds like so much nonsense.
 
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Bringing back the instant manpower buttons was a bad call. Overall a really disappointing dev diary when compared the the 4 Christian dev diaries.

Also is druze not considered part of the Islamic group? I can see why it wouldn't but am curious to how it's defined.

Yea it feels unfair there is only 1 diary long content for all of Islam, the diary is not that long anyways
 
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Not sure about including Wahhabism as a school. It's more of a movement that rose in the 18th century from Hanbali thought in the 1st Saudi state and was intertwined with Saudi politics. It had very little influence in the Islamic world within the timespan of the game. Even today no Muslim scholar would say they subscribe to the Wahhabi school because it's not considered as such.
 
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How does the Dhimmi estate work? Does it include every pop who is non-Muslim (Please say no), is it only monotheists, or is it only historical groups who had this status?

I've been hoping for a mechanic where the Dhimmi always include Christians and Jews, but other groups can be added and removed from being considered Dhimmi. Historically Zoroastrians, Hindus, Buddhists, Sikhs, Mandaeans, and Manicheans were parts of the group at various times.

I'm hoping that being given the status means lower conversion rates and more tolerance in exchange for jizya.
 
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Interesting that you displayed Gurus and Scholars are religious figures/characters, but not Protestant preachers (although they do exist as characters but don't use the Religious Figure feature, afaik)
 
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Not sure about including Wahhabism as a school. It's more of a movement that rose in the 18th century from Hanbali thought in the 1st Saudi state and was intertwined with Saudi politics. It had very little influence in the Islamic world within the timespan of the game. Even today no Muslim scholar would say they subscribe to the Wahhabi school because it's not considered as such.
Technically it is a hard-core mysticist branch of sunnism, so it isnt wrong.
 
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Have you considered spiltting the Shia religion into its different schools/branches ? From what I understand some of them don't really like each other and it would make more sense to reflect that on the pops too rather than just the countries like Hinduism
 
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Will there be events to represent the countries that converted to Islam during the game's timeframe, like Indonesia and the Steppes?
One content creator mentioned that there is a lot of flavour (regarding swapping to Islam) and that it is lots of fun. At least for SEA. I believe it was Ludi.
 
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How are multiple spouses represented in the UI? Are there any historical examples of female rulers with multiple spouses in the muslim world? I don't know many female Muslim rulers in the first place (Shajar al-Durr) and don't know any with multiple husbands.
 
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At what age will a muslim be able to marry in the game?
All characters are considered adults at 16 years old, and they can marry at 21 years old. Take into account that this is because of compliance with PEGI and other equivalent rules.
 
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How does the Dhimmi estate work? Does it include every pop who is non-Muslim (Please say no), is it only monotheists, or is it only historical groups who had this status?

I've been hoping for a mechanic where the Dhimmi always include Christians and Jews, but other groups can be added and removed from being considered Dhimmi. Historically Zoroastrians, Hindus, Buddhists, Sikhs, Mandaeans, and Manicheans were parts of the group at various times.

I'm hoping that being given the status means lower conversion rates in exchange for jizya.
I think there can be a law for this in south asian countries about including or excluding groups other than christians and jews
 
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Why is piety not a societal value when it has the exact same behaviour as one? The piety -100 to 100 feels weird when we could have 100 towards legalism or mysticism along with all the rest of the support societal values get.

If it's just a case of "societal values live in government tab and piety should be in the religion tab" then I feel you could make the game much more extensible by allowing societal value like modifiers in other places, like religions or IOs or what have you.
 
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Maybe it would be better for piety to give permanent bonus modifiers to manpower and stability as long as it is high/low enough than to just give manpower out of thin air.
 
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Yea it feels unfair there is only 1 diary long content for all of Islam, the diary is not that long anyways
Why do I feel like the devs pretty much had no good idea for Islam and posted here a rather half-made version to farm suggestions?

If that (thankfully) is the case, then I expect devs to acknowledge some of the suggestions as taken into consideration. If not, then idk man, maybe they reserved it for future DLC I guess, which I think is a bit disingenious. Also, I really hope the devs show some additional images, because I am at my addiction withdrawal phase, and I need some hype boost.

My apologies if I sound disrespectful tho, nothing against the devs, just that I kinda expected a bit more, dunno.
 
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