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Tinto Talks #66 - 4th of June 2025

Hello, and welcome to another Tinto Talks, the happy Wednesdays where we talk about Europa Universalis V!

Today, we will discuss the mechanics of Islam. In EUV, it is considered a Religious Group, as Christianity or Buddhism:
Islam.png

As usual, please consider all UI, 2D, and 3D art WIP.

As you see, three Religions compose the group: Sunnism, Shiism, and Ibadism:
Sunnism.png

Shiism.png

Ibadism.png

They share similar features, and then inside them is where we make the religious differentiation:
Islam panel.png

The first mechanic is Schools, an old companion from EU4, but that has been reworked in EU5:
Religious School.png

Muslim countries start with a School, which gives some modifiers:
Hanafi.jpg

As you can see, each School has a different view of the other. This is important because you can invite Scholars of Schools that are available for your branch of Islam, and also don’t have a negative opinion of your chosen School.

Because, yes, the old EU4 Scholars are also present in EU5, but they’re now inside a new category, the ‘Religious Figures’, which gives some more flexibility on how to use them:
Religious Figure.jpg

Scholar.png

Scholars are now characters that can travel through the Islamic world and be invited to work for you:
Invite Scholar.png

This unlocks the possibility to change the Main School of your country to that of the Scholar:
Change Main School1.png

Change Main School2.png

Change Main School3.png

In total, we have this number of schools, with some schools being available to more than one religion:
  • 10 Sunni:
    • Ḥanafī
    • Ḥanbalī
    • Mālikī
    • Shāfi'ī
    • Ẓāhirī
    • Ash'arī
    • Māturīdī
    • Aṯarī
    • Mu'tazilī
    • Wahhābī
  • 11 Sufi - Both for Sunni and Shia, except 3:
    • Bektashi
    • Chishtī (only for Sunnism)
    • Ḵalwātī
    • Mevlevi
    • Naqshbandī (only for Sunnism)
    • Qādirī (only for Sunnism)
    • Ṣafavī
    • Shāḏilī
    • Suhrawardī
    • Īsāwī
    • Dīn-i Ilāhī
  • 8 Shia:
    • Ismā'īlī
    • Ja'farī
    • Zaydī
    • Imāmīya
    • Nizārī
    • Musta'lī
    • Alevism
    • 'Alawī
  • 1 Ibadi:
    • Ibadi - only for Ibadi
    • It also has access to all the Sunni and Shia schools, but not the Sufi ones

The main currency for the religion is Piety, again a returning concept from EU4. Piety can go from a value of -100 to +100 (representing Mysticism or Legalism respectively), giving scaling benefits to the country depending on the direction.
Piety.png

Piety will be modified towards one extreme or the other mainly through events, although there are also some ways of adding a passive monthly tendency towards one direction, including privileges and cabinet actions. Another important aspect to mention regarding piety is the fact that to be able to invite a Scholar belonging to any of the Sufi schools, the country must already be leaning towards Mysticism.

There are a couple of actions in which the country can spend its piety to gain some benefits. A country can exchange piety for either stability or manpower, and both actions require being at 50 piety towards either direction, and move the value 40 towards the center.
Manpower Action.png

Stability Action.png

There is also the option to perform a pilgrimage to one of the Holy Sites, as long as they are owned by the country, an ally, or someone with good relations. Performing a pilgrimage will give a small increase in piety, as well as sending the ruler on a holy journey.
Pilgrimage.png

Another important aspect to mention is the fact that Muslim countries have access to some unique laws and policies:
Iqta Law.png

Nikah Policy.png

Shariah Law Policy.png

Implementing the Sharī'ah Law will unlock an extra law, the Sharī'ah Jurisprudence, with policies dependent on the country’s main school.
Shariah Jurisprudence.png

Finally, there are a couple of unique buildings available for Islamic countries:
Madrassa.png

Sufi Loge.png

And that’s all for today! Tomorrow is Thursday, which means that we will publish a new ‘Behind the Scenes’ video, and on Friday, we will take a look at the Ottomans and the Rise of the Turks situation!

And also remember, you can wishlist Europa Universalis V now! Cheers!
 
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The shia symbol probably should be the Zulfiqar sword, the sword of Ali over the ottoman star and crescent.
that's good idea too, but since they have considered the moon and star (which In terms of identity that's true too) I think none of these two religions (Sunni and Shia) should seem better/worse than another! using rotated symbol with red color can transfer such feeling! and I hope they think about it!
 
Again, religious schools are a very disappointing missed opportunity to have an actual impact on your society (societal values, estates...)
And religious bonuses are kind of out of place and unjustified, what makes Sunnis better at trading than Shias ? What makes Shias have higher moral ? Isn't it even just a little bit problematic to essentialize religions this way, especially when your game has better tools to represent how each religions has an impact on society.
Also, knowing that the developers have openly stated that they didn't want to make this game about modifier stacking, aren't all these unjustified modifiers counterproductive ?
I think it kind of makes sense thet sunnis are better at trading and shias have higher moral. Even today you can see the effects of this while shia's despite having weaker armies continue to fight and sunnis in general don't care about what is going on and continue trade.
 
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first time I haven't been a fan of the religion icons, Sunnism looks hollow, while Shiism and Ibadism look like they're made of plastic
 
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What makes Sunnis better at trading than Shias is that most of the Muslim world is Sunni, so the same legal system applies in distant countries, facilitating trade with those countries.
So how does this bonus makes sense when trading with non muslims
What makes Shias have higher morale is that most of the Shia redoubts are in highly defensible mountainous locations full of hardened warrior peoples.
How does it make sense for Shias that don't live in mountainous regions ? Can you quote an historian that says that people who live in mountains are systematically hardened warriors ? Isn't it a bit problematic to portray Sunnism as the "trading religion" and shia as the "warrior religion" without any academic consensus backing this claim ?
 
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I think it kind of makes sense thet sunnis are better at trading and shias have higher moral. Even today you can see the effects of this while shia's despite having weaker armies continue to fight and sunnis in general don't care about what is going on and continue trade.
But how can you determine that this has anything to do with the religion of the states ? Don't you see how highly problematic, even kinda racist, it is to reduce the actions of these nations to their religion when what you are talking about actually does not work as a generality and is caused by much more complex societal and political realities specific to each country
 
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In a game full of slowly changing modifiera the "press button to exchange piety for soldiers" is awkwardly resembling the EU4 mechanics you seemed to want to get away from.

Instead maybe add a button to press a la "mandatory prayers" or something which gives you prozentual buffs to manpower or stability for a slow loss of piety for a set amount of time.

The exchange seems out of place
 
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Well that's because you are talking about alevis and I'm talking about alawites :p. Not too familiar with alevis, but the alawites desire to be recognized as muslims is tied to the Al-Assad rise to power in Syria, which led to calls to depose the infidels ruling over muslims amongst the sunni population. This led to the Al-Assad family looking to get recognized as true muslims to look for legitimacy, eventually getting Khomeini to recognize alawis as a subsection of twelvers (which makes no sense, as, if anything they would be a subsection of ismailis, much like the druze, but you know, politics...).
Aha ok yeah ik that about alawites.

Tbh even though khomeini and khamenei officially did that barely anyone of the shiites here(well, whatever remains of them nowadays anyways)recognizes them as shia, even the basij-irgc and adjacent shias who pretend to do drop the pretense behind the camera and call them "those confused syrian shia lookalikes"
 
Bringing back the instant manpower buttons was a bad call. Overall a really disappointing dev diary when compared the the 4 Christian dev diaries.

Also is druze not considered part of the Islamic group? I can see why it wouldn't but am curious to how it's defined.
I feel like an increased recruitment drive or simliar would be a bit more fitting. Giving the same bonus over maybe two years, without feeling too unrealistic. I like that the game so far very much rewards forward planning and any insta abilities kinda take away from this. Not sure if this thematically fits though, given that the capacity of barracks wouldnt magically increase and the capacity is probably mostly limited by available weapons etc.
 
So how does this bonus makes sense when trading with non muslims
I guess here the goal is to give some advantages related to the religion's specifications, it just gives them a bonus for their own trait, that's not related to whom they trade with. that's all
How does it make sense for Shias that don't live in mountainous regions ? Can you quote an historian that says that people who live in mountains are systematically hardened warriors ? Isn't it a bit problematic to portray Sunnism as the "trading religion" and shia as the "warrior religion" without any academic consensus backing this claim ?
I don't know who thinks Shia has anything to do with mountains!! but in my book the Shia has just high fighting spirit due to some beliefs and fatvas I guess.
the same as you. I don't agree with calling them "trading religion" or "warrior religion" too, I think here we shouldn't have such interpretation just because of a special bonus allocation.
 
Does the madrasa convert a fixed number of people each month? That would make it much easier to convert a province with less people. History leads me to expect a pattern where sparsely populated deserts and mountains (eg Tabaristan in northern Iran) were the last areas to convert, while it's easier to get settled cities to convert. So this has it backwards.

Also isn't it a bit anachronistic to stop wine trade automatically in every Muslim country? A number of Ottoman sultans are rumoured to be drunkards (Bayazid or Murad III). My understanding is that its also not forbidden for non-Muslims in a Muslim country to drink, leading to Muslim tax records showing the taxation of taverns. I'd suggest making this something a particularly pious ruler might enact.
 
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I don't know who thinks Shia has anything to do with mountains!! but in my book the Shia has just high fighting spirit due to some beliefs and fatvas I guess.
Again, that's a very bold claim made without sources, it is not common sense for Shias to have high fighting spirit and if the Devs make this claim through this bonus they actually have to back it up
 
Do Muslim rulers have multiple wives?
 
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I don't like the mechanic to ban imports. Muslin pops should just not consume those goods, but countries that have other religions should still be able to import them. It makes no sense for Sardinia or Cyprus to not be able to import wine just because they are part of a Muslin market. It is unrealistic. I would just make muslin pops not demand those goods so markets that have a very high Muslin population would not have a high demand for them.

I think you're confusing the market a tag's location(s) is part of as opposed to the Location(s) actually importing and exporting from the market it/they are part of.
 
What you’re describing is Ahlul Dhimma / “Dhimmis”, people under protection of the muslims by virtue of Jizya, and this specific category is Ahlul Kitab (People of the book), they are viewed as heathens but held in high regards. Depending on the school of jurisprudence or a religious harmonisation mechanic it should be possible to expand the group.

Historically the group included just the Ahlul Kitab by religious consensus but was expanded to other religions who claimed to be monotheistic like Zoroastrians and others.
Obviously technically they are heathens but they aren't viewed the same as traditional heathens by Islam. Perhaps there should be another classification TrueFaith/Heretic/Heathen/(Family) or whatever it will be called as a Tolerance for Abrahamics. Even the literal definition of Heathen is someone not of Christianity Judaism or Islam.
 
I must say dissaointed that we are returning to the more gamey version of the instant manpower and stab buttons and schools as ways to just modifier stack. Otherwise do like the UI for this. Hope we get a more through rework down the line as these do feel like they do not fit as well into EU5 (same honestly for Buddhism still having karma scale)
 
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I don't understand what manpower modifiers are supposed to represent. I thought that manpower came from soldier pops and was used to build units, and then when those units take casualties the pops will lose an equal amount of people. So how do you get more manpower, i.e. more people, from the same amount of soldier pops?

A Manpower modifier would simply mean that more people become enrolled soldiers - I have yet to see the Peasants into Soldiers system explained, but other Professions have, say, 10 Pops being promoted from Peasants per month, so a 10% modifier to this Location would yield you 11 Soldiers.
I would assume that 11 Peasants were recruited (no longer Peasants) but there's still a chance that 1 of the Soldiers were cloned, who knows?