Tinto Talks #66 - 4th of June 2025

[AgathosKaiSophos]

Yes, they're different Islamic traditions; these are their descriptions in-game:

Alevism
Following the teachings of Ḥājī Baktāš Walī, Alevism is a syncretic mystical school, emerging from the Imāmīya school but incorporating traditions from Tengri and older Turkic beliefs. It also takes some aspects of Sufism, like the presence of a spiritual leader and mysticism practices.

Sorry but this isn't quite accurate. Haji Bektash Veli is just one of many spiritual figures in Alevism, and by no means the single most significant. Also rather than "the Imāmīya school" which I presume just refers to Twelver Shi'ism, it would be far more accurate to say that Alevism has its roots in the Vefaî Order that preceded it, which by the way also existed during the timeframe of the game (in parts of Iraq, Anatolia and Persia) and in Anatolia developed into what we'd call Alevism today. "incorporating traditions from Tengri and older Turkic beliefs." Is a bit oddly written to me, I'd leave out the Tengri part and say there are elements of syncretism with older Turkic traditions and practices. I should say that while there are undoubtedly Turkic cultural influences in Alevism (such as the concept of the Ocak, or familial hearth), there are also just many influences from various other cultures and religions in the region. The excessive emphasis on that in particular happens to be greatly exaggerated by outsiders who know little of the actual beliefs and history of Alevism.

Some notes:

-On Alevi's and Bektashi's
Alevi's and Bektashi's should be kept distinct, I do however think it is important to understand the connection between the two. The Bektashi Order essentially sprung from Anatolian folk Sufism (Alevism) and developed into a more organised Sufi order whereas Alevism is very much decentralised and "folkish", that is to say, the beliefs and practices while largely overlapping can vary widely by region and congregation. I like to think of it as a phenomenon.

-Legalised alcohol consumption
Some other users proposed potentially legalised alcohol consumption for Alawi's, if this is done I'd recommend this to be extended to both Bektashi's and Alevi's as well as possibly certain other sects. At the very least it should be a potential option.

-Alevi's and Alawi's should both fall under "Sufism" rather than "Shi'ism"
I find it odd that they weren't there in the first place. Especially since the Bektashi's and the Safavi's (both of which at least have a distinct connection to the Alevi's) are. It doesn't quite make sense that these don't. As I understand you don't have to strictly align with both Sunni's and Shiites to fall under the "Sufism" category either, as Chishtī is already limited to Sunni's.

-I prefer Alevi over Alevism.
I think the latter stands out a bit when you compare it to all the other Sufi orders that end on -i. Alevi's. It just looks odd.

I recommend the following source in particular as it's one of the few solid academic works on the subject in English.
Ayfer Karakaya-Stump, The Kizilbash-Alevis in Ottoman Anatolia: Sufism, Politics and Community (Edinburgh: Edinburgh University Press, 2019).
Another (though mildly dated) source I recommend that touches on the beliefs and history of much more than just Alevi's, but also the Alawites, Bektashi's, Safavids, etc. and how they all interact is the following:
Matti Moosa, Extremist Shiites: The Ghulat Sects (Syracuse University Press, 1987)

If necessary I could even connect you with a certain renowned scholar and writer on this topic, do let me know.

 

[qarubo123]

Hi, great Dev diary, I would please ask that there would be a certain level of visual impact on a certain population from being/becoming muslim. Muslim female characters ought to cover their hair, and you might include male characters occasionally wearing turbans also. This could be dynamic in some cases like spread of islam in indonesia, where buddhist/hindu populations dress in a more a traditional southeast asian/indian style(women don't wear veils and cover a lot less of the body in general) while muslim pops are different. It doesn't make much sense for an ethnic population to dress exactly the same with no alteration, after becoming muslim. Islamic law in fact encourages muslim to stand out visually from non-muslims and in Ottoman empire of this period religious based dresscode was the standard for every major religious group, so that they could be distinguished in public. Thank you!

 

[Sizvahstar]

Every single unit so far has a manpower(MP) maintenance to unit strength ratio. The ratio makes it hard to have the standing army outstrip the MP creation buildings and making a regular unit both costs MP and then imposes a MP upkeep reducing and eventually stopping the refill rate of the MP pool. That unit (it if wasn't a typo) remove that limitation and breaks the pattern set.


The MP pool in a intermediate currency that is not directly tied to pops. Pops are not affected when the current MP value is increased or decreased. The MP pool is a limit on how fast you get spin up an army and how fast you can recover from a loss. Pops are connected to regular units through damage/attrition.

As Pops are removed on damage/attrition to regular units we do not know how this will work for any of the non-land based countries.

I think we need more information of how it effects actual play before we can do more than give conjecture. I can't say I'm right or that you're wrong, I simply think it's in line with the army-based nature of the Golden Horde.

Perhaps the -0 Monthly upkeep cost is fine if the initial cost of recruitment is higher?

 

[Abdullah Al-Falah]

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You will find sources for that in the Arabia thread(s).

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Thanks a lot for this info... certainly helpful...

 

[Oglesby]

I think we need more information of how it effects actual play before we can do more than give conjecture. I can't say I'm right or that you're wrong, I simply think it's in line with the army-based nature of the Golden Horde.

Perhaps the -0 Monthly upkeep cost is fine if the initial cost of recruitment is higher?

The recruitment cost is the 'strength' of the unit (which is also consistent across the 'classes' and 'ages' of units.

I agree we need more information on how the non-land based polities actually function. (It sounds like they expect the building-based polities to use mercenaries which subverts this issue, or at least the bank-flavored ones).

 

[Sizvahstar]

The recruitment cost is the 'strength' of the unit (which is also consistent across the 'classes' and 'ages' of units.

I agree we need more information on how the non-land based polities actually function. (It sounds like they expect the building-based polities to use mercenaries which subverts this issue, or at least the bank-flavored ones).

Well, there's a material cost beside the Manpower/Pops cost, that could be increased.

 

[Lazlo93]

So how exactly is this theological dispute relevant to anything EU5 is trying to do? Atharism is basically just the Hanbali school of theology, if you really want to model it just fold it into the Hanbali school and call it a day.

in fact, i think if Paradox included Twelver, Ismaili, Zaydi as 'schools' under Shia, for Sunni, it should be Athari, Ashari, Maturidi and i'd argue Mu'tazila (basically not Shia in a general sense), not 4 fiqh schools.
because like you said, 4 fiqh schools are generally in good relationship by the time of this timeline and it wouldn't really create the same dynamics like Shia's 'schools' relationships.

 

[Abu Ahmar]

in fact, i think if Paradox included Twelver, Ismaili, Zaydi as 'schools' under Shia, for Sunni, it should be Athari, Ashari, Maturidi and i'd argue Mu'tazila (basically not Shia in a general sense), not 4 fiqh schools.
because like you said, 4 fiqh schools are generally in good relationship by the time of this timeline and it wouldn't really create the same dynamics like Shia's 'schools' relationships.

The four fiqh schools are materially relevant during this timeframe, the schools of kalām are largely irrelevant.

 

[MoorishBro]

For a religion that has impacted world history massively, this to be honest is a truly disappointing dev diary....

I expected more, but seems like islam is there just because it is.

The systems are clearly made in a hurry without much thought deducing from the info we got, a lot of stuff is just weird and not right.

Sufi orders should be buildings, the bektashi being a military order.

I hope mamluks, janissaries etc get their own institution too represented by a character.

All in all a real disappointment, seems like a modified EU4 copy paste lol.

I atleast hope there is SOME interaction between muslim countries like the christians get through the church, cardinals, bulls, holy leaugue,... etc

Islam in EU4 was barebones and centered around the piety system and that was really it. 2 exploit clicks.

There should be funds to do missions, give zakah to another muslim country, establish trade relations with pagan countries, buildings to set up your own hajj company and infrastructure in the indian ocean and cross the middle east,...

 

[Lazlo93]

The four fiqh schools are materially relevant during this timeframe, the schools of kalām are largely irrelevant.

kalam lol
tell that to the Atharis and they'd smack you.
differences in fiqh wouldn't be branded as deviant while differences in creed would be branded as such. i say for consistency's sake, the 4 madhab should be scrapped for schools of creed in Sunni. except of course if they'd try to code both which would be a welcome to me.
the 4 madhab itself is unique that if you choose the Hanbalis for example, you wouldn't get to choose becoming Asharis, Maturidis or Mu'tazila since Hanbalis are exclusively Atharis.

 

[Lazlo93]

For a religion that has impacted world history massively, this to be honest is a truly disappointing dev diary....

I expected more, but seems like islam is there just because it is.

The systems are clearly made in a hurry without much thought deducing from the info we got, a lot of stuff is just weird and not right.

Sufi orders should be buildings, the bektashi being a military order.

I hope mamluks, janissaries etc get their own institution too represented by a character.

All in all a real disappointment, seems like a modified EU4 copy paste lol.

I atleast hope there is SOME interaction between muslim countries like the christians get through the church, cardinals, bulls, holy leaugue,... etc

Islam in EU4 was barebones and centered around the piety system and that was really it. 2 exploit clicks.

There should be funds to do missions, give zakah to another muslim country, establish trade relations with pagan countries, buildings to set up your own hajj company and infrastructure in the indian ocean and cross the middle east,...

they'd save that for the future DLC lol

 

[TomosCaerllion]

I find it a little bit inconsistent with the choice of madhab and theology being in one list. I would prefer for Atari, Maturidi, etc. not to be on the list as there is nothing to stop you from being an Atari and a Hanbali or even a Hanafi and Atari, although certain theologies predominate within certain regions so often you see theologies and schools of jurisprudence pair up.

I can understand adding the Sufi orders for alternative flavour, but I do like the comments saying that they might work better as a building based country.

However, I think it would be more internally consistent if the theological groups were removed from a list of 'schools'.

Other than that... I really like this system.


The only other contentious one could be Wahhabi as it's an exonym. It is very rare for someone to call themselves a Wahhabi, it's more often used as a label by their critics. But if it is specifically for a Najdi event or situation I suppose we all know what it means, a bit like Byzantine. But Salafi could be much broader if it's meant to represent the whole 'revivalist' movement, or if it isn't for a specific Najdi flavour, it might be unnecessary as, once again, the groups that most often get labelled Wahhabi would either be Hanbalis or, if it's just an exonym for Salafis, Salafis can actually follow any school as Salafiyah refers more to a methodology rather than a different school of jurisprudence.

 

[LordThanatos]

We've made tweaks, and the pops of following religious groups can be part of the Dhimmi estate: Christian, Israelite, Zoroastrian, Dharmic, and Buddhist.

The main thing you're missing here is the Mandeans - unless you've put them in the Israelite group. Being considered Dhimmi is a big part of their history. I'm glad to see so many improvements being discussed, though. I'm looking forward to seeing them.

 

[petertel123]

Also I am really not sure about alcohol being blanket banned for all Islamic countries. The precepts of sharia are one thing, the laxness of their application in society (especially before modern times) is totally another. I remember reading that Europeans described Hormuz as a place where drinking and other excesses were common. It looks like the Ottomans allowed it for non-muslims and just taxed it. It seems to have been prominent, if officially marginalized, among the Safavid, Mamluk and Mughal elites as well.

Also Timur and his men were heavy drinkers despite being muslims and they distrusted a Spanish ambassador simply because he didn't drink alcohol.

 

[Abu Ahmar]

kalam lol
tell that to the Atharis and they'd smack you.
differences in fiqh wouldn't be branded as deviant while differences in creed would be branded as such. i say for consistency's sake, the 4 madhab should be scrapped for schools of creed in Sunni. except of course if they'd try to code both which would be a welcome to me.
the 4 madhab itself is unique that if you choose the Hanbalis for example, you wouldn't get to choose becoming Asharis, Maturidis or Mu'tazila since Hanbalis are exclusively Atharis.

Differences in fiqh were actually of practical importance because that's what determined the legal system of your country. Scholars were primarily trained within the madhhab tradition because their main job was interpreting the law, not interpreting theological questions. I'm having a great deal of difficulty thinking of examples of historical episodes where differences in creed had any sort of real-world impact on affairs of state during this time period, besides the very late emergence of Wahhabism (which you could just as easily interpret as a movement within the Hanbali madhhab as one within the Athari creed).

So what we've got is a situation where 1) law matters a lot more than theology to the rulers and the religious scholars alike and 2) schools of theology are mostly aligned with the schools of law anyway (Hanafis are almost always Maturidis, Hanbalis are Atharis, etc). I really don't see the point of modeling the schools of theology for Sunnis at all.

 

[Fallen Comet]

At what age will a muslim be able to marry in the game?

Is that supposed to be offensive?

Assuming it's a geniune question, it should be in accordance with regional customs, but legally once the male and woman reach the age of marriage, both physically ready and mentally prepared as well as with consent from both parties. But we know in monarchies sometimes they marry for alliances/diplomatic treaties, such as Ottoman-Serbian marriages.

If that was an attack towards our religion, I suggest you look at the age of marriage of your ancestors roughly 200 years ago. You'll find they married young, regardless of region.

 

[Sirbab]

Is that supposed to be offensive?

Assuming it's a geniune question, it should be in accordance with regional customs, but legally once the male and woman reach the age of marriage, both physically ready and mentally prepared as well as with consent from both parties. But we know in monarchies sometimes they marry for alliances/diplomatic treaties, such as Ottoman-Serbian marriages.

If that was an attack towards our religion, I suggest you look at the age of marriage of your ancestors roughly 200 years ago. You'll find they married young, regardless of region.

It didn't read as offensive to me. But I'm not Muslim so I don't have all of the same context. Hell I'm sure my ancestors married at like 16 400 years ago.

 

[Fallen Comet]

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Unless already done so, Dhimmi status should only apply to Abrahamic and Dharmic religions, as they historically did.

Over 2.3 million Tengri tribal pops in the Golden Horde for example are now Dhimmi estate because of it not being so.

Also, tribal pops in general shouldn't be considered for Dhimmi, because they are by nature not part of any group.

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This is not supposed to be strictly historical. Dharmic religions were not under Ahlul Dhimma during the Rashidun Caliphate.
As Islam spread it came into effect. So it should be dynamic by nature.

 

[Fallen Comet]

There are a couple of actions in which the country can spend its piety to gain some benefits. A country can exchange piety for either stability or manpower, and both actions require being at 50 piety towards either direction, and move the value 40 towards the center.

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How does this make any sense lol. Recruiting troops should add to piety, as Muslims being recruited for battle as Mujahids is seen as pious,

 

[Snies124]

Is that supposed to be offensive?

Assuming it's a geniune question, it should be in accordance with regional customs, but legally once the male and woman reach the age of marriage, both physically ready and mentally prepared as well as with consent from both parties. But we know in monarchies sometimes they marry for alliances/diplomatic treaties, such as Ottoman-Serbian marriages.

If that was an attack towards our religion, I suggest you look at the age of marriage of your ancestors roughly 200 years ago. You'll find they married young, regardless of region.

No, I'm probably the least islamophobic guy you'd ever meet in real life. I think I'm probably more respectful towards muslims than 99% of people on this forum. I actually own a Quran in my personal library. I'm the kind of guy who would support legislation for taxpayer funded female circumcisions in accordance with sharia law. Yes, because that way we can ensure the method is both safe and effective, and the result is satisfactory.

Alif Lam Mim