1066 Provinces Reworked Discussion

[Mad King James]

Ok release 1 discussion:

Since Catalonia was once part of the Caliphate, and was reconquered relatively recently in game terms, I was pondering adding some of the taifa economic techs to that area, and maybe one or two of their military techs (like soft leather or longspear)

 

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Have you tried out how it works out in actual gameplay? If yes, please share experiences.

 

[Mad King James]

Well, the Iberians fare much better against the Taifas, actually engaging in the reconquista, though it's not a sweeping reconquest, and the Taifas can still fight back.
Byzantines aren't superman anymore, Georgia doesn't die instantly, no more supermoslems.

I'm more looking for comments from you guys though, as I want an unbiased view

 

[Sera]

Great initiative, the tech emplacement for sure needs adressing. I refuse to use Paradox's naming of techs though, as they are clearly ahistorical. Suffice to use weapon/armour type and level. My comments:

"French and Normans start out with chained leather, handaxes and level 1 crossbows"
Consider replacing handaxes and crossbows with Slash and Piercing Weapons Level 1. They were not really noted for their bowmen. Likewise consider Plate Armour Level 1 (really predates the roman empire). This was the Norman heyday, they should be made slightly superior to contemporaries imo.

"Cumans and Hungarians get soft leather, shortbows and shortswords"
Consider giving these Bows Level 2. The Skythian (pre-Christian), Hun (used to supress Rome), Avar, Hungarian Bows - all double recurve composite bows (usable from horseback), had their origins here and their archers were likely among the finest in the world. Also consider giving Cumans Archer Cavalry.

"Taifas downgraded to shortbow, soft leather, longspear, shortsword"
Toledo has been known to make superior blades since before Hannibal and well past the timeline covered in CK. Consider giving Toledo Slash Weapons Level 2.

 

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Didn't the norman knighthood during Willy's age use chain hauberks, not any kind of plates? Or actually all western knighthood during 11th century?

It's not possible to get archer cavalry without events.

But would the swords of Toledo be just very good quality shortswords or be even better in design?

 

[Mad King James]

For purely balance reasons, I don't think giving anyone a level 2 tech in 1066 is a good idea. Also unfortunately horsebowmen are an impossibility at this stage.
Also, noone made extensive use of plate mail in this timeframe

 

[Sera]

Didn't the norman knighthood during Willy's age use chain hauberks, not any kind of plates? Or actually all western knighthood during 11th century?

It's true the knights in the early days predominantly used cloth, quilted leather and chain hauberks until improvements in Crossbow technology spurred the developement and use of Plate Mail. Yet early Plate armour had been used centuries before, the most common type perhaps the Roman Lorica Segementata.

It's not possible to get archer cavalry without events.

Too bad, how about Seljuk Turks, have they been given these units?

But would the swords of Toledo be just very good quality shortswords or be even better in design?

Certainly both. Toledo weaponsmiths were known for making superior quality weapons as well as their own designs.
During the Crusading era, Toledo swordsmiths used the advanced Damascene metal working technique in the production of their blades.

Which reminds me, "Damascus Steel" was a widely known term for superior metal armour and weapons and the Damascene metal working technique originated here. As such Damascus should likely have the high start level of Slash Weapon, Piercing Weapons, Chain Armour in the game. Probably with a certain amount of "splash effect".

"During the long years of the Crusades, the armies of Europe found themselves badly outnumbered. Not only were there more Saracens than Crusaders in the Holy Land, but the armies of Islam were much better equipped. They rode sleek, swift horses bred for the hot desert climate, wore a chainmail light enough to provide them maximum mobility yet strong enough to stop European blades, and used weapons made of a steel so well-forged that it bent under pressure without breaking, yet held an edge so sharp it could cleave a man in half with only the force behind one arm. What was this secret steel of the Near East, its forging guarded so well by the swordsmiths of Syria?

That steel was called Damascus steel, a term used by Crusaders to describe the metal used by the artisans and swordsmiths of Damascus, Syria. These metalworkers, particularly during the Middle Ages, were famous for their ability to hammer and temper wootz steel into fine and supple blades."

 

[Mad King James]

The thing is, my interpretation isn't whether they HAD the technology or not, but whether they actually used it extensively amongst the majority of their troops.

 

[Sera]

The thing is, my interpretation isn't whether they HAD the technology or not, but whether they actually used it extensively amongst the majority of their troops.

...they did. We're talking about entire armies equipped with Damascus Steel.

 

[Mad King James]

Uh whoa not quite, Crucible steel was EXPENSIVE, because the actual steel wasn't made in Arabia or Toledo, but imported from India. Also it wasn't unique only to those areas, everyone from the Byzantines to the Franks gobbled up the things.
And while the swords themselves were superior, the tactics remained the same.
In no way would an entire army be equipped with crucible steel blades, only the general/king/duke/count and the lieutennants/lords under his command would actually be able to afford the things.

 

[Sera]

Wootz (first form of crucible steel), was widely exported throughout the Middle East, where it was combined with a local production technique around 1000 AD to produce Damascus steel, famed throughout the world.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crucible_steel

 

[Mad King James]

I'd still rather not re-introduce level 2 weapons techs. They unbalance the game way too much.

 

[Damocles]

I salute you, MKJ.

Though, I'd give the Normans offensive terrain and something that improves knight attack, like piercing or crush.

 

[Mad King James]

giving them shortswords and/or offensive terrain would give them a big advantage in that regard

 

[Sera]

I'd still rather not re-introduce level 2 weapons techs. They unbalance the game way too much.

Not really. It's the disparity between level 0 and 1 that is the real killer. Standard weapon tech increase from level 0 to 1 is +6, while the same from level 1 to 2 is mere +2. Paradox should tone it down and we can have a more historical and balanced game.

 

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Damascus

Hi all,

MKJ is on the right track; there was no such thing as Damascus steel.

There is no archeological evidence of any large scale metal manufacturing in Damascus. However, Damascus was a major trading location and they did trade in a great deal of superior Indian & Persian steel weapons.

Toledo was a major metal working site producing superior metal work but so was the Upper Loraine-Champagne area, eventually Shefield in England, Copenhagen,
Thessalonica, Milan etc.
Not that important in game terms.

Mike

 

[qvcatullus]

It's true the knights in the early days predominantly used cloth, quilted leather and chain hauberks until improvements in Crossbow technology spurred the developement and use of Plate Mail. Yet early Plate armour had been used centuries before, the most common type perhaps the Roman Lorica Segementata.

Ummm, the fact that a technology was available in the heyday of the Roman Empire hardly qualifies it to be used in the Middle Ages. I'll admit to being a prejudiced classicist, but there was undoubtedly a significant loss of both technology and the infrastructure to use it over the course of that whole 'dark ages' business. Which is offset by those snazzy Gregorian chants, of course...