212) FIXED IN 1.03: Claims on titles you already own.

[Duuk]

Jealousy of the Mirror (or: I claim myself!)

If you have a claim and manage to get control of the province, you still have a claim to it. Shouldn't that be cleared?

 

[Grisold]

If you have a claim and manage to get control of the province, you still have a claim to it. Shouldn't that be cleared?

Well, it could be logical to keep the claim, as it makes your demesne all the more legitimate, and easier to get back if your lose it. What is more annoying is when you get multiple claim for the same title. This frequently happened in 1.01, but I didn't play long enough to see it in 1.02

 

[kurtbrian]

I'm inclined to give it a WAD.

 

[Galleblære]

Bug 1.02: Claims on titles you already own.

Example: As Norway, I try to revoke the Duke of Trøndelag title from my brother, and he refuses. I now get a "claim" on this title, logical enough, allowing me to go to war over it. However, I finally manage to get a diplomatic solution, and he hands over the duke title. I am now Duke over Trøndelag.

I still have a claim on the title! Isn't that a bit illogical?

Similarly, I was in a war against them Mecklembourg pagans, and whilst I took their provinces, I didn't notice that they had landed some people i Viken before the message popped up telling me it had been captured. I now get an automatic claim on Viken, fair enoug. However, when I finally capture it back, I STILL have a claim on it, even though it's a demense!

The system works with count titles. IE, I try to revoke the Archbishop of Bergenshus and he refuses, I get a claim, and can attack. When I capture and annex the province, the claim dissapears.

What can I say, I like tidy screens!

 

[Orm]

Example: As Norway, I try to revoke the Duke of Trøndelag title from my brother, and he refuses. I now get a "claim" on this title, logical enough, allowing me to go to war over it. However, I finally manage to get a diplomatic solution, and he hands over the duke title. I am now Duke over Trøndelag.

I still have a claim on the title! Isn't that a bit illogical?

While I agree that there are a bit too many claims flying around in this game, I don't think it's less logical to have claims on counties you already own in CK than it is to have CB shields on provinces you already own in EU.
I certainly wouldn't call it a bug anyway.

 

[Galleblære]

While I agree that there are a bit too many claims flying around in this game, I don't think it's less logical to have claims on counties you already own in CK than it is to have CB shields on provinces you already own in EU.
I certainly wouldn't call it a bug anyway.

But when the claim is permanent (and you only get BB for making claims IIRC) it is a potential exploit. Grant the Duke title to some rich bastard, DOW him, annex, take all the money and repeat.

What should happen is that upon granting the Duke title to someone, you "lose it", that is, you don't have any dispute about it since you granted it. If you want to reclaim it, you should need to try to revoke it in order to get it back, not be able to declare war right of bat.

If it isn't a bug like you say, why would Dukes and Counts be treated differently? And claims handing around after you gain the province as a personal demense is certainly a bug.

 

[Duuk]

How about if you kept the claim but it was suppressed in the claim window since it is currently fulfilled?

You see, I'm on a Mission From God to clean up that claim window.

 

[Orm]

But when the claim is permanent (and you only get BB for making claims IIRC) it is a potential exploit. Grant the Duke title to some rich bastard, DOW him, annex, take all the money and repeat.

If that's the way BB works (I haven't checked carefully with 1.02) then, yes, that sounds like an exploit. But to me the problem seems to be more related to the BB mechanism in this case. You should get some BB for annexation IMO.

For the rest I'm not really sure I understand what the problem is... my main quarrel with your first post was your claim that it's illogical to have a claim on land already owned. It's postulated by the game, and has nothing to do with logic. *)

But you say you tried to revoke the duke title from your brother, and then you got the claim on that same title, shouldn't you need a claim to be able to revoke the title in the first place?


*) at least not from a game perspective... of course you could argue that there's a logical algorithm leading up to it in the program....

 

[Galleblære]

If that's the way BB works (I haven't checked carefully with 1.02) then, yes, that sounds like an exploit. But to me the problem seems to be more related to the BB mechanism in this case. You should get some BB for annexation IMO.

For the rest I'm not really sure I understand what the problem is... my main quarrel with your first post was your claim that it's illogical to have a claim on land already owned. It's postulated by the game, and has nothing to do with logic. *)

But you say you tried to revoke the duke title from your brother, and then you got the claim on that same title, shouldn't you need a claim to be able to revoke the title in the first place?


*) at least not from a game perspective... of course you could argue that there's a logical algorithm leading up to it in the program....

Let me put it in simple terms that you can understand:

Count and Dukes are treated differently in the game.

When you start a normal game, you have no claims on your demenses. Why? Because you already own them! Everybody knows they are yours. Thus, the claim is reflected through ownership. Get it?

For example, I want the Bergenshus province, problem is, from game start, the former king of Norway had already granted the Bishop there ownership. I try to revoke it, since it's part of my realms, and when he refuses, "claim on Bergenshus" pops up in the overview screen. This give me the option to go to war over it.

I do so, and annex the province. Now the claim on Bergenshus dissapears, as I own it, and my "claim" is refelcted through ownership. Simple enough.

Dukes titles are treated differently. If I claim a duke title, and go to war over it, and then get it, IE, "I AM THE DUKE OF BERGENSHUS", I still have a claim on it. It should be removed. My "claim" is reflected through ownership, just like count titles are.

If I then hand out the duke title to Mr.X, I accknowledge his right to rule, and thus I should have my claim removed likewise. This is how the counts are treated, why should dukes be any different?

 

[Orm]

Let me put it in simple terms that you can understand:

I can't say I like the tone of your post much.

Count and Dukes are treated differently in the game.

This would have been a nice summary to your first post to avoid all confusion.
I'm sorry I didn't get your subtle logic.

 

[Galleblære]

I can't say I like the tone of your post much.

Oh, calm down I didn't mean anything with it. I simply don't like people taking the "smartass" attitude coupeled with emoticons

 

[Orm]

Oh, calm down I didn't mean anything with it. I simply don't like people taking the "smartass" attitude coupeled with emoticons

There was no "smartass-attitude" intended. I was just explaining what part of your initial post I had gotten hooked up on, and also wrongly (as it turned out) interpreted as your main grievance. I'm sorry if you took offence.
As for the rest of it, I'm still learning the basics of this game much like most people here and consequently don't know how everything is supposed to work. So if I give an answer that sounds stupid in your ears, please give me the benefit of the doubt...

 

[Galleblære]

There was no "smartass-attitude" intended. I was just explaining what part of your initial post I had gotten hooked up on, and also wrongly (as it turned out) interpreted as your main grievance. I'm sorry if you took offence.
As for the rest of it, I'm still learning the basics of this game much like most people here and consequently don't know how everything is supposed to work. So if I give an answer that sounds stupid in your ears, please give me the benefit of the doubt...

No harm done, friend. Now, having claims on your own demenses is certainly a bug, since you don't start out with any.

I think claims should be "things you don't have but want". So, for instance, as a King you try to reclaim all the provinces in your realms, you will naturally get claims on them all (and severe drop in relations with your vassals). You then get "claims" on their count titles. However, (this I have tested) when you conquer them, the claim dissapears when you annex the province.

My main grivience is, that with Duke titles, this doesnt happen.

Also, I'd like for the betas to fix the overlook when you retake land lost to pagans. The claim should be removed (as in the viken example)

 

[Duuk]

I do so, and annex the province. Now the claim on Bergenshus dissapears, as I own it, and my "claim" is refelcted through ownership. Simple enough.

Not in 1.02

You'd still show the claim in your box.

(This is me, continuing my Crusade to clean out the claim box of all extraneous information)

 

[Galleblære]

Not in 1.02

You'd still show the claim in your box.

(This is me, continuing my Crusade to clean out the claim box of all extraneous information)

But you don't see the shield in the overview screen

 

[Duuk]

Yeah you do. And on your character sheet.

 

[Galleblære]

Yeah you do. And on your character sheet.

Maybe we are talking about different things? Follow these steps to see what I mean:

1. Start as Norway. Check status. On the overview screen, it lists all your vassals, but you have no claims (no shields).
2. Try to revoke the Bergenshus title from the Bishop. Make sure he refuses.
3. Check the status now. On the overview screen, you now have a claim on the title for Count of Bergenshus.
4. Declare war, annex.
5. Claim on Title for Count of Bergenshus has now been removed.

Duke title:

1. Start as Norway. Check status. On the overview screen, it lists all your vassals, but you have no claims. (no shields).
2. Try to revoke the title Duke of Trøndelag from your brother in Numedal. Make sure he refuses.
3. Check the status now. On the overview screen, you now have a clain on the title for Duke of Trøndelag.
4. Declare war, win, in peace settlement grab title, annex.
5. Claim on title for Duke of Trøndelag has now been removed.


It appears I was wrong, the Count AND Duke title are treated the same in the above example. However, through play I have been able to have a claim on Duke titles whilst holding them, which clearly crashes with the intended way as shown above. Maybe a check could be introduced in the code to remove "redundant" claims?

Still, as stated, there is one clear bug which is reproducable as follows:

1. Start as IE Norway.
2. Declare war on Meckembourg.
3. Have Meckelmbourg siege and take a province from you.
4. You now gain a claim on that province.
5. When retaking that province, making it a demense, the claim persists, and is NOT removed as it should be as shown in the first above example.

Could any Betas comment on whether or not my perception on how claims should be handeled is correct?

 

[Duuk]

Ahh, we're talking about 2 different areas.

Click on your face in the upper right after you do it. You'll see "Claims" in the lower right of his character sheet.

Even if you occupy the land, it'll show the claim.

 

[kurtbrian]

I noticed.

I can log it as an enhancement suggestion, but I doubt Johan will fix.
there are more serious bug to root out still.

 

[Solmyr]

Since you get a claim every time you lose a province, but keep the claim when you get it back, you can end up with many claims on one province. That's the primary reason to remove a claim when you take a province.