305)FEEDBACK: Vassalage traced with titles

[Spruce]

getting indepence as Flanders

don't know if this applies for all duchies, but for Flanders there's definately a bug. I play brugge and have enough prov's to usurp the title of duke of Flanders from Upper Lorraine. As the conflict begins I'm the vassal of the German king (I changed allegiance from France to Germany early game).

So I dow UL (upperlorraine) and find myself being at war with both Germany and UL. After a few months I've taken all the property from UL and Germany.

1. I make peace with Germany and after the peace I don't have a liege anymore - hurray! But still at war with UL and haven't got my Ducal title.

2. I make peace with UL and get the title from UL (they reckognise me as duke of Flanders), after peace I'm - again - a vassal of Germany - what the hell???

3. Germany dows me again after some days and I defeat them, I make peace with them and this time they remain my liege,

so the whole thing is messed up,

It weird to see that I can not gain independence and that the system is not logical - as you have noticed yourself. In the first war - I get rid of my vassal status from Germany. And then I make the peace with UL and I'm again a German vassal? Even worse, Germany dow's me and after peace I'm still a German vassal?

I replayed each step to avoid making mistakes, but the outcome is the same,

 

[FrEDa]

Hmm, sounds weird yes.

I assume UL was your liege? If so, he would have gained a Claim on you when you DOWed him I think.

If you can test this again, check what happens if you, when making peace with UL, also demand that he recognize your right to all the claims he has on you.

Still sounds like a bug, but that might be a workaround..

/F

 

[Spruce]

Hmm, sounds weird yes.

I assume UL was your liege? If so, he would have gained a Claim on you when you DOWed him I think.

If you can test this again, check what happens if you, when making peace with UL, also demand that he recognize your right to all the claims he has on you.

Still sounds like a bug, but that might be a workaround..

/F

no UL was not my liege, I was vassal of German king,

I've tried all combinations, but all failed

 

[Spruce]

in general discussion Forum Sikker also described some weird situation when getting independence as Flanders,

 

[kurtbrian]

The thing you want to report isthat you went from no liege to being vassal to germany without doing anything?

 

[Spruce]

The thing you want to report isthat you went from no liege to being vassal to germany without doing anything?

the thing I want to report is that I can't get independent as Flanders - tough it was under 1.01 patch. But sikker reported some weird things also about Flanders,

perhaps you read my step by step explanation, and yes it seems crazy - but that's how it was - crazy,

I went to war with me liege and with his vassal to steal the claim - but there was not one possible way to become independent - even after winning many wars,

lucky for me some other vassal blew the German king out of the sky, and only then I was independent,

 

[Grosshaus]

the thing I want to report is that I can't get independent as Flanders - tough it was under 1.01 patch. But sikker reported some weird things also about Flanders,

Sorry, but this can't be logged until it's known to happen in 1.02 as well.

 

[Sikker]

Sorry, but this can't be logged until it's known to happen in 1.02 as well.

Well, in that case it is known now. I play as Flanders. I have a loyalty of 0.0. And I can't declare war on France (my liege) or declare myself independent in ANY way (I guess I need a claim to DoW, but since I play on very hard it isn't easy to accumulate enough prestige to claim a royal French province).

 

[Spruce]

Well, in that case it is known now. I play as Flanders. I have a loyalty of 0.0. And I can't declare war on France (my liege) or declare myself independent in ANY way (I guess I need a claim to DoW, but since I play on very hard it isn't easy to accumulate enough prestige to claim a royal French province).

Sikker, that wasn't entirely my story,

I pledged allegiance to the German king - perhaps because I couldn't get the "dow" button on the French king - don't recall tough o

but when I was at war with the Duchy of UL (to grab the title of Duke of Flanders) and king of Germany (my liege) I couldn't get independent when I had stoolen the title of Duke of Flanders,

So I had a generous peace in my favour, but still I was his vassal when the peace was concluded - weird hey?

so not entirely the same then,

Grosshaus is right, as Brugge doesn't exist as a county in 1.02, I don't think there will ever be somebody that can reconstruct entirely

the only thing I know is that there was an issue with getting independent in 1.01 (in other words = to break the vassal status to your liege),

 

[BiB]

Well, in that case it is known now. I play as Flanders. I have a loyalty of 0.0. And I can't declare war on France (my liege) or declare myself independent in ANY way (I guess I need a claim to DoW, but since I play on very hard it isn't easy to accumulate enough prestige to claim a royal French province).

Same thing happened to me. Unless I am mistaken I thought you should be able to break the vassalage at 0.0 loyalty, which wasn't possible at all.

I got from out under them eventually by becoming King of Lithuania but it should be a bit easier

 

[SJG]

The Duke of Upper Lorraine, and therefore the Duke of Flanders, was a vassal of the King of Germany. So maybe when you assumed the title the Duke of Flanders you also assumed the vassalage.

 

[unmerged(12746)]

Unless I am mistaken I thought you should be able to break the vassalage at 0.0 loyalty, which wasn't possible at all.

Im sorry BIB but you are mistaken. The only way someone can break vassalge is to offer another leige your loyalty, thus becoming his vassal. The human player cannot break vassalation on his own, his AI leige can break it by declaring war on you, and you defeating him, and as part of the peace deal you demand he recognizes you as XYZ title.

SJG is on to something. Because the duke of Lorraine was vassal to the king, and he held the Duke of flanders title you became the Kings vassal. The AI dosent seem to recognize one ruler with multiple titles, it sees titles first, so the German King supported his vassal the Duke of Lorraine and you won, and you took the title of Duke of Flanders from the Duke of Lorraine, not the King of germany. That title was always a vassal of the King of Germany and he wasnt at war with you over that, how would he know your intent was to take that title only? When you made your peace deal with Germany you needed to make him recognize you as the Duke of Flanders, even then you would have been his vassal.

If you had taken the Duke of Lorraine title, your vassalge should have been broken. However if you took both Duke titles you would still be a vassal of Germany, under your Duke of Flanders title. Retest it, and take the Duke of Lorraine title only, Im betting you become a free duchy.

 

[BiB]

Im sorry BIB but you are mistaken. The only way someone can break vassalge is to offer another leige your loyalty, thus becoming his vassal. The human player cannot break vassalation on his own, his AI leige can break it by declaring war on you, and you defeating him, and as part of the peace deal you demand he recognizes you as XYZ title.

Damn manual

Which then of course also begs teh question why it isn't possible for the human player.

 

[unmerged(12746)]

Damn manual

Which then of course also begs teh question why it isn't possible for the human player.

Technically you can break Vassalage BIB, you just have to give it to somone else, or be at war with your leige and part of the peace deal you demand he recognize you as what ever title you want.

I think there should definately be an option to break vassalation, but the 50% threshold seems high to me (given current AI behavior with switching around vassal counts you get to 50 pretty fast). I would like to see a feature where you can break vassalation, without declaring war, but at the cost of giving your former leige a claim against all titles you held at the break.

 

[BiB]

Technically you can break Vassalage BIB, you just have to give it to somone else, or be at war with your leige and part of the peace deal you demand he recognize you as what ever title you want.

I think there should definately be an option to break vassalation, but the 50% threshold seems high to me (given current AI behavior with switching around vassal counts you get to 50 pretty fast). I would like to see a feature where you can break vassalation, without declaring war, but at the cost of giving your former leige a claim against all titles you held at the break.

So, like the manual says it should work then?

 

[unmerged(12746)]

So, like the manual says it should work then?

yes sir, Mr Bib sir !

 

[Spruce]

The Duke of Upper Lorraine, and therefore the Duke of Flanders, was a vassal of the King of Germany. So maybe when you assumed the title the Duke of Flanders you also assumed the vassalage.

back to the problem I find myself at war with Germany and UL I've taken all their provinces and I'm ready to make peace,

1. When I make peace with Germany, I become independent. When I make peace with UL I become duke of Flanders and become a German vassal?!? Is this WAD?

2. The other way around - first to make peace with UL and then with Germany - gives the same result! I make peace and still remain a vassal to Germany,

question remains = has anyone seen this behaviour in 1.02?

p.s. = I reported it under 1.01, due to the different setup in 1.02 it might never be reproduced,

 

[Grosshaus]

It seems we have just experienced an attempted thread hijack by an admin

Sooo, back to the original problem about Spruce had. First of all let me change the title of the thread not to be Flanders specific.

It seems the vassalage linked to a title is reserved when the title changes hands. This makes sense, if I get the title of a duke I should become the liege of his vassals. But should one become vassal of the liege of the original title-holder? I'd say yes. It doesn't sound logical in this scenario since you had just gained your independence from Germany.

But thinking it otherwise: if you as a count decided to overthrow your duke and both are part of the same kingdom you should remain as a vassal. I'd say it Works as Designed in most cases. It seems the problem could have been avoided by first sueing peace with the duke and then with the king.

 

[unmerged(12746)]

It seems we have just experienced an attempted thread hijack by an admin

Sooo, back to the original problem about Spruce had. First of all let me change the title of the thread not to be Flanders specific.

It seems the vassalage linked to a title is reserved when the title changes hands. This makes sense, if I get the title of a duke I should become the liege of his vassals. But should one become vassal of the liege of the original title-holder? I'd say yes. It doesn't sound logical in this scenario since you had just gained your independence from Germany.

But thinking it otherwise: if you as a count decided to overthrow your duke and both are part of the same kingdom you should remain as a vassal. I'd say it Works as Designed in most cases. It seems the problem could have been avoided by first sueing peace with the duke and then with the king.

This will work when its a lesser claimant, Count to Duke, Duke to King. But Spruce was getting a Duke title from a Duke, so he couldnt be the Duke of Lorraines vassal. What I think is happening is, is that the AI Leige isnt apart of the peace deal (in this case the German King) Spruce makes his peace with Lorraine and demands the Duke of Flanders title, which was already a vassal of the King of Germany.

It seems that the AI sees the title and assigns it a value, in this case Duke of Flanders is vassal to the King of Germany. So in order for Spruce to remain an independant and be the Duke of Flanders he would have to make the deal with Germany to recognize him as the Duke of Flanders. He cant do that in his war and peace deal with lorraine.

The other thing that I'm not quite sure on is the fact he went to war with the Duke of Lorraine, not the Duke of Flanders. Technically he did but the person he declared war on, his primary title and COA was Lorraine. So as the human player you cant tell the AI what title your going to war over, and so the AI dosent know so I am guessing it looks at its primary title first. Maybe if there was a trigger for the AI to know that once you usurp a title thats the one your going after. To get the Duke of Flanders title, Spruce shouldnt have to defeat all the lands that belong to the Duchy of Lorraine, he should have to defeat the demense of the Duke of Lorraine only, and then as part of his peace deal take the Duke of Flanders title. I am pretty sure you can do that, but the Duke of Lorriane isnt going to make any deals, when his vassals are all still able to field armies, in his defense, he's thinking your going after his Lorraine title.

I dont know, I think Im going off on a tangent..

 

[Spruce]

Grosshaus,

there's a problem anyhow,

after I made peace with UL and king of Germany (I had become duke of Flanders in the meantime) the German king dow'd me,

after taking his demesne - again - I sued for peace and still I was his vassal,

that happened in one of the try-outs, I tried it 5 times!