A couple questions about ART Brigades.

[Piggy]

When you start as germany most of your existing corps have a SP-ART attached to standard infantry divisions.

Im curious what the difference is between standard ART and SP-ART. Both increase the softness value, neither of them changes the max speed. Other then a slight difference in moral/org what are these SP-ART supposed to represent?

At first I thought attaching the SP-ART to my MOT divisions would be a good idea, but because of the +10 softness this doesnt seem to be a good idea if your using your MOT with ARM divisions. Later on I plan on using STUG's with my MOT, I dont really ever build any other SP-ART other then what you start with.

Although to be honest I really have no idea what the softness values actually does, but to me it seems better to have a lower softness, especially for MOT divisions attached to a Panzer Division right?

I would love some feedback/input on why or where you should use SP-ART?

Thanks

 

[ShadoWarrior]

I use SP-ART on everything. Almost every enemy division you face is a soft target, and the high SA value of SP-ART is very nice. The next best choice (IMHO) is I-ARM, but that requires considerably more research before you get I-ARM that doesn't slow your units and that has decent SA value.

 

[Piggy]

I use SP-ART on everything. Almost every enemy division you face is a soft target, and the high SA value of SP-ART is very nice. The next best choice (IMHO) is I-ARM, but that requires considerably more research before you get I-ARM that doesn't slow your units and that has decent SA value.

Yes but whats the benefit of using SP-ART to standard ART, they both have the same soft attack/defense values (or very close). The only thing I see is a neg morale for standard ART over SP-ART. Why is that?

One would thing standard ART has a speed penalty compared to SP-ART but it doesnt? At least it doesnt with standard infantry.

 

[HistoryMan]

Probably because (if you are playing as Germany) you have researched the initial Infantry motorisation tech, that eliminates the speed penalty for normal ART, IIRC.

Tim

 

[Piggy]

Probably because (if you are playing as Germany) you have researched the initial Infantry motorisation tech, that eliminates the speed penalty for normal ART, IIRC.

Tim

That would make sense, but Im still confused as to why there are too types of ART. Historical reasons?

And why does one have a neg moral penalty, essentially they're the exact same guns, its just one is towed by a motorized vehicle as opposed to horses.

Modernization maybe?

 

[ShadoWarrior]

Yes but whats the benefit of using SP-ART to standard ART, they both have the same soft attack/defense values (or very close).

I don't have one of my GER games open at the moment; I'm playing as the UK presently. In this game, it's less expensive (2.1 vs. 2.2 IC), and takes less time (86 days vs. 91), to build SPA than regular ART. I've done no research that I'm aware of that specifically makes SP cheaper and faster. OTOH, the Heavy Arms industrial techs reduce regular ART build times by -6 days versus only -2 days for SPA. However, since all my starting artillery attachments upgraded to SP, I went along with building more SPA, for consistency.

As I only build fully-motorized and mechanized units when playing HoI2, it's against my personal doctrine to build ART.

As for why regular ART might have a negative morale penalty, try slogging through mud with horse-drawn arty! There's also the factor that regular arty needs a lot more setup time, and when taking counterbattery fire is much more vulnerable.

 

[Piggy]

Well its easy for the UK to go fully motorized, however for germany this would be too much strain on TC I think.

Or did you mean you researched all the motorization of infantry/cav techs?

Ive stayed with the one motorization tech germany starts with, I didnt plan on researching any more.

 

[ShadoWarrior]

Or did you mean you researched all the motorization of infantry/cav techs?

Ive stayed with the one motorization tech germany starts with, I didnt plan on researching any more.

I never research cavalry-related stuff, even after allies gift me the BPs. I do research both of the infantry motorization techs (the second one is 1940). Going from speed 3 to speed 4 with Germany's legacy units (or the UK's) is quite useful and IMO well worth researching that one tech. Yes, being fully motorized is a strain on TC. I simply don't care. I consider mobility to be the most important factor in land warfare.

 

[Piggy]

Thanks, I'll look into going one further on the motorize techs, the extra 1 speed is a big bonus for standard infantry.

Ive always (well in the two games of CORE ive played) just built standard ART, but now I might think about going for SP-ART. However when I get the Stugs (I-ARM?) then I like building lots of them, they add a good punch to infantry and a good brigade for motorized units IMO.

Do you attach brigades to your tank divisions and if so which one? I though a stug would also be good for them?

Can you tell I like Stugs

 

[ShadoWarrior]

I attach SPA to everything that'll take them. I use "recycled" ENG and AA for paratroops, since any sort of arty is too heavy for them.

I agree with you on I-ARM. At least one of the SS units you get begins with an I-ARM, and it's quite nice. I'm considering researching assault guns in my UK game so I'm able to build the better I-ARMs (the ones without a speed penalty). They don't pack the same level of SA punch as SPA, but they make up for it with better HA and they don't decrease softness by 10% (instead of raising it), and they increase ORG by 5% (instead of lowering it by 2%).

Some people don't bother with any armor research, in which case SPA is the obvious choice, since to get I-ARM you need to invest in a substantial amount of armor techs.

 

[Piggy]

Well the tech isnt hard to get, if you're playing a country that build armor its only one other tech to decent I-ARM and is a fast one to research.

Okay, one more question... :rofl:

Engineers or Pioneers? Pioneers are better for offense and I've been building them as Germany. But do they also give you a river crossing bonus like true engineers do?

I cant remember the other differences though.

Either way I really like the way CORE has done brigades, with so many options to choose from I often spend alot of time looking at that area in the production menu. So many options....

PS: I also like how AT brigades are now actually worth building.

 

[ShadoWarrior]

One of the great things that CORE has done IMO is that most attachments do not decrease speed, which is a welcome difference to vanilla.

One the subject of engineers, I don't know the answer, but I'm sure one of the CORE devs will jump in and answer it for you. I do have my own question regarding engineers. The regular (non-Pioneer) engineers are supposed to add 1 to speed, yet I've never seen that increase reflected in the speed of a division to which one is attached. Is this working in CORE?

 

[HistoryMan]

I think any river crossing bonus for Engineers is probably hard coded, since you can't add terrain related variables to Brigades. So, in that case, Engineers (any model) would give you the river crossing bonus.

And I am not quite sure where you got the idea that Engineers gave you a +1 speed bonus ? None of the CORE Engineer attachments do (you can see for yourself in the unit stats file).

re ART vs SP-ART. You don't see any difference in game between the speeds of these units, because it rounds everything to Integers, but the non SP Artillery will still be slightly slower in actual effect (this is with the 1st Infantry Motorisation tech researched). The morale effect difference represents the SP artillery being a lot quicker to come back into action and generally being more mobile and flexible than horse-drawn equipment.

Hope that answers your queries.

Tim

 

[ShadoWarrior]

And I am not quite sure where you got the idea that Engineers gave you a +1 speed bonus ? None of the CORE Engineer attachments do (you can see for yourself in the unit stats file).

In the game, the ENG-7 shows +1 maximum speed on the production screen stats display. Do you need a screenshot? In vanilla HoI2DD engineers do provide a speed boost to the units they are attached to (regardless of base division type). It's the main reason I built them.

 

[unmerged(65036)]

As for why regular ART might have a negative morale penalty, try slogging through mud with horse-drawn arty! There's also the factor that regular arty needs a lot more setup time, and when taking counterbattery fire is much more vulnerable.

Also, the self-propelled artillery is less likely to be captured by an advancing enemy, which means that defeated divisions with attached SP artillery regiments will be less likely to have to replace their equipment than those with towed artillery regiments and could therefore spring back from defeat somewhat faster.

Looking at the 'brigade' files, neither kind of artillery provides a morale penalty, but both provide an organization penalty. I speculate that this is for the same reason that they provide a softness penalty: because the artillery is not well protected and difficult to move quickly in response to a threat, divisions equipped with artillery are relatively more vulnerable to breakthroughs into their rear. A larger percentage of their firepower can be taken out quickly by a breakthrough unit, and the artillery crews are inherently more vulnerable to attack from the air or from indirect fire weapons than dug-in troops in their foxholes or vehicle crews under armor would be.

I never research cavalry-related stuff, even after allies gift me the BPs. I do research both of the infantry motorization techs (the second one is 1940). Going from speed 3 to speed 4 with Germany's legacy units (or the UK's) is quite useful and IMO well worth researching that one tech. Yes, being fully motorized is a strain on TC. I simply don't care. I consider mobility to be the most important factor in land warfare.

There's a third one in 1944, right?

Many people agree about mobility. I'm not sure Germany would profit from all the transport techs simply because they are chronically short on TC, but I have no intention of carrying out a controlled test because I don't play fast enough to make that a rewarding experience.

On the 'engineer speed' question, the engineer.txt file indicates that all three types of 'logistic engineers' (the ones that provide a strong defensiveness increase, but no attack bonuses) provide a speed bonus.

 

[ShadoWarrior]

There's a third one in 1944, right?

Yes. The '44 one effectively turns all your leg infantry into motorized by increasing speed by +3.4!, hence it's called "Full Infantry Motorization".

On the 'engineer speed' question, the engineer.txt file indicates that all three types of 'logistic engineers' (the ones that provide a strong defensiveness increase, but no attack bonuses) provide a speed bonus.

Indeed. And that speed bonus does not appear to work. At least not in my CORE/ARM games. The last time I played HoI2 prior to CORE v0.3 I was playing plain DD. It may be a bug that's been introduced with ARM. Does anyone have any info on this? Are engineers providing a speed bonus for anyone?

 

[Piggy]

Yes. The '44 one effectively turns all your leg infantry into motorized by increasing speed by +3.4!, hence it's called "Full Infantry Motorization".

+3.4 speed?!? wow thats insane, although its a pretty late tech but thats doubling your infantry's speed. Im sure the fuel/supply usage goes sky high along with that tech. I doubt I would research it as germany.

Regarding pioneers, what (historically) were these guys? I know from many books Ive read that the germans used or called these brigades "poineers" (did other nations call them this as well?) in essence are they just another name for engineers or did they have a more specific purpose, hence the name?

EG: The stalingrad book I just read noted a few of these brigades being used at the battle of Stalingrad, so where these units like an assualt group for fortified positions? Considering the picture of them in CORE is a flame thrower this would make sense but then again its just a picture.

 

[ShadoWarrior]

Guess you never played Panzer General.

Pioneers are assault engineers. They specialized in taking fortifications, demolishing bridges, clearing (or laying) minefields, and the like. They were also referred to as sappers. This is in contrast to construction engineers (what CORE refers to as "logistical engineers") which specialize in the opposite of demolitions: building bridges, creating airfields, et cetera.

In the German army, Pioneers (in company strength) were a standard part of most divisional establishments. Independent construction engineer battalions existed for both the Germans and the Allies.

 

[Piggy]

I never played Panzer general, but Ive heard it mentioned so many times I'm beginning to feel like I really missed out on something

Thats basically what I thought regarding pioneers but thanks for clarifying it for me. I like building them, they have decent stats on offense that make them a good choice for germany, not to mention "pioneers" sounds cooler then vanilla engineers.

I like to build my 3 division infantry corps with 1 ART, one AA, AT or AC and a pioneer.

My Panzer corps I prefer to have 1 or 2 ARM with either L-A or H-A and the motorized division with a StuG.

Seems like a good balance to me. Although a pioneer or engineer would also help the panzer corps a bit, but I prefer to have as much ORG & firepower for these corps as possible.

What do you guys think? Again there's so many options to choose from now its hard to decide, its great though because it adds alot of flavour.

 

[HistoryMan]

Mea culpa - the logistical Engineers do provide a +1 speed bonus - but since (for example) Infantry are capped at 2.65 speed with Engineers (instead of 2.4 base), you do not see "+1 speed" as the effect. If you have the typical German "+10% land unit speed" minister in place, INF would normally go at 2.64 (the game would display this as 3, I believe) and with an Engineer, would go at 2.92 (also displayed as 3). The engineer bonus is a "+1 speed if the unit can manage it", not just a base addition regardless. Armor units (for example) start out at base speed 7.2, but can go up to 8.2 with an Engineer attached - hence they will use the full bonus.

Note also that the Motorisation techs also changes your costs and terrain modifiers to become more and more like MOT as you progress through them.

Tim