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unmerged(27913)

unmerged(27913)

Pessimus Dux Sclavorum
Apr 16, 2004
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Let say I want to remove Schwyz/Helvetia duchy...to who would I give it?

The thing is I started thinking about it lately and it came to me that having this "Duchy" is wrong....Schwyz/Helvetia was a confederation, a republic so it's shouldn't really be any different from Venice for example, but the problem is that I really don't know to whom the area would go. I've looked at some maps and prior to appearance of Swiss Confederation the area belonged to Burgundy/Arles kingdom and was also known as "Little Burgundy".

I thought to give St.Gallen and Aargau to Swabia(the latter didn't really belonged there but I just don't have ideas). Then Grisons and Chur to Milan and Bern and Scwyz to Savoy. Thats the best I could come up with making sure that the map doesn't look ridiculous and unhistorical. In fact this way only Aargau, Bern and Scwyz would be in ahistorical duchy but they didn't really belong to any duchy but were royal domains.

Suggestions?
 
Finellach said:
Let say I want to remove Schwyz/Helvetia duchy...to who would I give it?

The thing is I started thinking about it lately and it came to me that having this "Duchy" is wrong....Schwyz/Helvetia was a confederation, a republic so it's shouldn't really be any different from Venice for example, but the problem is that I really don't know to whom the area would go. I've looked at some maps and prior to appearance of Swiss Confederation the area belonged to Burgundy/Arles kingdom and was also known as "Little Burgundy".

I thought to give St.Gallen and Aargau to Swabia(the latter didn't really belonged there but I just don't have ideas). Then Grisons and Chur to Milan and Bern and Scwyz to Savoy. Thats the best I could come up with making sure that the map doesn't look ridiculous and unhistorical. In fact this way only Aargau, Bern and Scwyz would be in ahistorical duchy but they didn't really belong to any duchy but were royal domains.

Suggestions?
Click to expand...

A viable solution. The Habsburgs (in Aargau were determined to conquer the region, should they have suceeded it may be have been viable to 'found' a duchy from it.

St. Gallen (Appenzell) would prolly go to Swaben and Grisons (the Grey league or somesuch) to Lombardia. Having a Duchy founded on the 'rebellious republic' isnt that much a leap for those who could quell it.

What would it be called? Helvetia, why not. Alemannia possibly (yes, not entirely accurate but possible.)

Ayeshteni
 
St. Gallen or Chur could theoretically go to Tirol too. Though imho it becomes too awkward without a duchy there, which is why there is Helvetia in "my" plan. :)
 
Ayeshteni said:
A viable solution. The Habsburgs (in Aargau were determined to conquer the region, should they have suceeded it may be have been viable to 'found' a duchy from it.
Click to expand...

Duchy out of Aargau or out of Habsburg?

St. Gallen (Appenzell) would prolly go to Swaben and Grisons (the Grey league or somesuch) to Lombardia. Having a Duchy founded on the 'rebellious republic' isnt that much a leap for those who could quell it.
Click to expand...

I've looked at even some more maps and all clearly show western Switzerland as part of BUrgundy, in fact as I said the region was known as 'Little Burgundy'....historically it was part of Upper Burgundy.

I was thinking maybe adding Aargau and Bern to Burgundy. St.Gallen and Scwyz would go to Swabia and of coure Geneve and Neuchatel to Savoy.
This would be the most historical and viable setup however this would make Burgundy an 8-province duchy(without Auxerre which would go to Champagne) and I have a rule that no duchy can be larger than 7 provinces/counties(Ural/Kazan is the only exception). Seems like I'll have to modify my "rule"... :D :p

What would it be called? Helvetia, why not. Alemannia possibly (yes, not entirely accurate but possible.)
Click to expand...

Well Alemannia is the old name for Swabia so I don't think thats a good choice. Helvetia is a posibbility but it's a name of as I said the same Swiss Confederation or Confederation of Helvetia. Also if I include it the way I want it will have only three provinces(Aargau, Schwyz and Bern) and that again looks wrong. It's just doesn't feels right having fanatasy duchy in the middle of Europe...
 
Being part of the old kingdom of Burgundy / Arles doesn't really justify being part of duchy of Bourgogne, which is primarily the later French duchy of Burgundy. Arles is the BURG kingdom, so maps proving Aargau and Bern there would rather justify them being in BURG rather than GERM, which they already are. :)

Imho most historical option if you don't want to have Helvetia there is to put Bern & Schwyz to NONE and divide the rest with neighbours.
 
Byakhiam said:
Being part of the old kingdom of Burgundy / Arles doesn't really justify being part of duchy of Bourgogne, which is primarily the later French duchy of Burgundy. Arles is the BURG kingdom, so maps proving Aargau and Bern there would rather justify them being in BURG rather than GERM, which they already are. :)
Click to expand...

I wasn't talking about Kingdom of Burgundy...it is clear that those provinces belong there.

The point here is that these counties were royal domain of Burgundian King....in this case the Emeperor. Historically Franche-Comte(County of Burgundy) shouldn't either be part of Burgundy duchy which was separate entity from 1034 but in game they are one entity. Later they were once more united....who knows if it wasn't for the Swiss Federation the French might have even go for "Little Burgundy" as well. The main problem is the whole feudal system which is totally wrong and this region emphasizes this problem to the maximum.

Imho most historical option if you don't want to have Helvetia there is to put Bern & Schwyz to NONE and divide the rest with neighbours.
Click to expand...

I am not really fond of having provinces with 'none'...I can accept it for kingdoms but duchies....that would be too much...
 
I added Free County as a duchy myself already, since I agree with you that they shouldn't be united.
 
Well, there are other counties as duchies anyway. Like Tirol, Barcelona, Toulouse, Champagne, Flanders etc.
 
Well Tyrol shouldn't be there...in my setup it isn't there. Barcelona is actually Catalonia and it represents the Principality of Catalonia. Toulouse, Champagne and Flanders were all very powerful counties who had their own vassals.
 
Yeahyeah, I know our desired end result differs, so lets not whip the dead horse even more. I hope you'll end up with nice and pleasing result for your own use. :)
 
I know Alemannia was another name for Swabia, but as they are of the same people, I thought I would throw it in.

The Habsburgs tried to dominate the area (and collect taxes without the consent of its citizens) from the Aargau region which led to the Swiss Federation. If the Habsburgs suceeded they could have carved out a territory from the free cities (at that time). I cant remember the name of the Habsburg castle at the moment (will find it later) but that could be the name of the 'Duchy'. EDIT: Habsburg, go figure :rolleyes: silly me.

St. Gallen (Appenzell - which means land/demsne of the Abbot) could go to Swaben, which Geneva and Neuchatel could go to Savoie. Grissons would go to Lomabrdia (representing Ticino (sp)). The rest would be the Duchy of 'X'. EDIT: I still think Helvetia would be the best name for the Duchy, though Habsburg, Aargau or even Bern/Lucerne would surfice.

Ayeshteni
 
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There are a lot of duchies on the map were a duchy is inappropriate, because the region wasn't feudalized (Frisia/Ost-Friesland f.e.). The Swiss were for a long time a feudal land, only not united under 1 ruler.

Until 1291, so more then 200 years in the game they were part of some feudal realm (kingdom of Burgundy, Swabia, Savoy, Houses of Zahringen, Habsburg, Kyburg). If the Habsburgs would have won the Swiss war, who knows what would have happend to the region.

So only in the 1335 there could, historically be a Swiss Republic.

The name Swabia comes for the Suebi tribe (a German tribe). The Allemanie were a splintergroup of the Suebi, and were a federation of smaller tribes, the french name for Germany is Allemagne named after this federation.

But you all problably know this already.

So your division of the Swiss between Swabia, Savoy, Milan is just as good as a duchy of Helvetia
 
Thank you both.

I've decied to partition the region like this:
Savoy - Valais, Neuchtatel, Geneve
Swabia - St.Gallen, Schwyz
Burgundy - Aargau, Bern
Milan/Lombardy - Ticino, Grisons

This makes Burgundy a bit strange looking and an 8-province duchy but I guess it can't be done better....the CK feudal system just doesn't allow anything better than this.
 
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