Abbayid Caliphate

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Abbasid Caliphate

I read that Baghdad was the most civilized city on earth until the Mongels destroyed it. I wish it wer included as a playable country as well. After reading Runciman's 3 volumes about the Crusades, The Arabs were much nobler and had a higher culture. They also had a tradition of toleration, which was lacking in the Western Europeans.

 

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Christian Dynasties ONLY. That said though it was hinted the game could be edited to play Muslim countries.

 

[Galleblære]

Yeah, but it will probably be the same as drinking alcohol-free beer or driving a lada when you could drive a lamborghini.

 

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Re: Abbasid Caliphate

Originally posted by laelius
I read that Baghdad was the most civilized city on earth until the Mongels destroyed it. I wish it wer included as a playable country as well. After reading Runciman's 3 volumes about the Crusades, The Arabs were much nobler and had a higher culture. They also had a tradition of toleration, which was lacking in the Western Europeans.

Even if Muslim dynasties are playable with some editing, I'm not sure if the Abbasid Caliphate qualifies as an independent state. In 1066, the Caliph was virtually a pawn of the Seldjuk sultans and Alp Arslan ruled over Baghdad directly (although he was personally in Persia at the time...at least until May 1066)

 

[Faeelin]

Re: Abbasid Caliphate

Originally posted by laelius
I read that Baghdad was the most civilized city on earth until the Mongels destroyed it. I wish it wer included as a playable country as well. After reading Runciman's 3 volumes about the Crusades, The Arabs were much nobler and had a higher culture. They also had a tradition of toleration, which was lacking in the Western Europeans.

Sorry, but the Arabs weren't more tolerant than Christians.

True, the christians crusaded against them.

But the entire EXISTENCE of the umayyad caliphate in Iberia was based upon holy war against the Christians in the north.

 

[Havard]

Re: Re: Abbasid Caliphate

Originally posted by Faeelin


Sorry, but the Arabs weren't more tolerant than Christians.

How does that go along with the fact that the Christians of Syria and Palestine continued to live there under Arab rule, without procecution, for hundreds of years while once the Christians took Antioch and Jerusalem they massacred every Muslim (or Jew) they could find?

But the entire EXISTENCE of the umayyad caliphate in Iberia was based upon holy war against the Christians in the north.

The first usage of "Holy War/Jihad" in the Levant by a Muslim leader as a way of gathering support for wars on the Christians was under Nur ad-Din in the 12th century...

 

[Aetius]

Re: Abbasid Caliphate

Originally posted by laelius
I read that Baghdad was the most civilized city on earth until the Mongels destroyed it. I wish it wer included as a playable country as well. After reading Runciman's 3 volumes about the Crusades, The Arabs were much nobler and had a higher culture. They also had a tradition of toleration, which was lacking in the Western Europeans.

I think the game is more focused on the less civilized nations by default, so their civilization pretty much disqualifies them

 

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Re: Re: Abbasid Caliphate

Originally posted by Faeelin


Sorry, but the Arabs weren't more tolerant than Christians.

True, the christians crusaded against them.

But the entire EXISTENCE of the umayyad caliphate in Iberia was based upon holy war against the Christians in the north.

Tolerance is shown to peoples who live -within- your state, waging war (holy or not, that's another matter) against foreign countries has little to do with it.

Muslim states in Iberia had large number of Christian citizens, same goes for Syria, Egypt, Lebanon and Sicily. Before the Crusades, Egypt's Coptic community was almost as large as the Muslim population and even today constitute a sizable minority.

The massacre of Jews and Muslims in Jerusalem by the Crusaders as well as the expulsion of Jews and Moors from Iberia present enough evidence to discredit your claim that the Christian world in 11th century was more tolerant than "the Arabs."

 

[Demetrios]

Re: Re: Abbasid Caliphate

Originally posted by tuna


Even if Muslim dynasties are playable with some editing, I'm not sure if the Abbasid Caliphate qualifies as an independent state. In 1066, the Caliph was virtually a pawn of the Seldjuk sultans and Alp Arslan ruled over Baghdad directly (although he was personally in Persia at the time...at least until May 1066)

True, but the Caliphate had great symbolic power, which would be used in the succeeding century by several successive politcially sharp Caliphs to make the Caliphate a fully independent state again. It should be there, but as a vassal state...

I've also read that Alp Arslan never visited Baghdad personally; his capital was at Isfahan...

 

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Re: Re: Re: Abbasid Caliphate

Originally posted by Demetrios

True, but the Caliphate had great symbolic power, which would be used in the succeeding century by several successive politcially sharp Caliphs to make the Caliphate a fully independent state again. It should be there, but as a vassal state...

I've also read that Alp Arslan never visited Baghdad personally; his capital was at Isfahan...

The Abbasid Caliphate certainly had a crucial role to play in the Islamic world, but I'm just not sure if that role fits into the scope of CK. Afterall, the Papacy is another powerhouse that won't be playable.

I hope there are at least a few special rules concerning the Abbasid Caliphate. Tugrul Bey had to save the Caliph twice and then persuade him some more just to marry his daughter (it's known that the Caliph refused several times before finally giving in )

Speaking of the Caliphate...what about the Fatimid one? The tension between Shi'i Fatimid and Sunni Abbasid Caliphates defined the regional politics in 1066. One interesting fact is that Alp Arslan was about to campaign against Fatimid Egypt (was already on his way to Damascus) when he received the news of a large Byzantine army approaching Armenia. He then hastily returned north and tried to negotiate a settlement with Romanos to no avail. The two armies met near Menzikert

 

[Demetrios]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Abbasid Caliphate

Originally posted by tuna


The Abbasid Caliphate certainly had a crucial role to play in the Islamic world, but I'm just not sure if that role fits into the scope of CK. Afterall, the Papacy is another powerhouse that won't be playable.

The Abbasid Caliphate should be pretty much the Islamic equivalent of the Papacy inthe game? Gain control of the Caliph, and gain prestiege in in the Muslim world like you would if you were a Christian and gained control of the Papacy?

I wonder if the game will tally up the preseige and piety gained by the Muslim countries, even if they are unplayable...

 

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Abbasid Caliphate

Originally posted by Demetrios


The Abbasid Caliphate should be pretty much the Islamic equivalent of the Papacy inthe game? Gain control of the Caliph, and gain prestiege in in the Muslim world like you would if you were a Christian and gained control of the Papacy?

I wonder if the game will tally up the preseige and piety gained by the Muslim countries, even if they are unplayable...

With minor adjustments, whatever hardcode is being used for the Papacy could do for the Abbasid and Fatimid Caliphates as well...but we just don't know enough yet, so this is barely an educated guess

I'd also like to see certain cities have enormous political significance should they change hands. Jerusalem, Rome and Mecca (if it's on the map) are the obvious ones. Kerbela should be another as it's one of the holiest sites in Shi'i Islam, where Ali's son Huseyn, along with 70 others, was martyred.

 

[Demetrios]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Abbasid Caliphate

Originally posted by tuna


With minor adjustments, whatever hardcode is being used for the Papacy could do for the Abbasid and Fatimid Caliphates as well...but we just don't know enough yet, so this is barely an educated guess

I'd also like to see certain cities have enormous political significance should they change hands. Jerusalem, Rome and Mecca (if it's on the map) are the obvious ones. Kerbela should be another as it's one of the holiest sites in Shi'i Islam, where Ali's son Huseyn, along with 70 others, was martyred.

Heh, you left out one rather important city, a rather startling omission in your particular case...

 

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Abbasid Caliphate

Originally posted by Demetrios


Heh, you left out one rather important city, a rather startling omission in your particular case...

Ah well, that's because I don't expect Constantinople to change hands...well not really, it's almost 5 am, that must be it

 

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Abbasid Caliphate

Originally posted by tuna


..............
I hope there are at least a few special rules concerning the Abbasid Caliphate. Tugrul Bey had to save the Caliph twice and then persuade him some more just to marry his daughter (it's known that the Caliph refused several times before finally giving in )

....................

Why would there need to be special rules for this? Sounds the same as some of the situations several popes found themselves in. Of course maybe there will be special rules for the popes too.

 

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Abbasid Caliphate

Originally posted by Sonny


Why would there need to be special rules for this? Sounds the same as some of the situations several popes found themselves in. Of course maybe there will be special rules for the popes too.

That's precisely what I meant Ideally, diplomatic relations with the Pope and the Caliph should have their own set of rules...

 

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Abbasid Caliphate

Originally posted by tuna


That's precisely what I meant Ideally, diplomatic relations with the Pope and the Caliph should have their own set of rules...

Since only Christians are playable. Hmm, was it going to be possible to marry a Muslim, or not?

 

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Abbasid Caliphate

Originally posted by tuna


That's precisely what I meant Ideally, diplomatic relations with the Pope and the Caliph should have their own set of rules...

Ah, o.k. - I thought you meant special rules just for caliphs.

 

[khurjan]

i think it might be bit late to code in muslim civs as playable entities...one reason is how will you make sure that they dont over run europe etc in human player hands...the dynamics of historical checks and counterchecks will be missing so i think the game designers took a brave step of limiting the focus to game to western europe and providing more indepth to it ...i.e look at medieval war peep with muslim civ could overrun europe in early stages in a breeze.

 

[Demetrios]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Abbasid Caliphate

Originally posted by tuna


Ah well, that's because I don't expect Constantinople to change hands...well not really, it's almost 5 am, that must be it

Heh, sure you don't expect Constantinople to fall...

*Imagines Tuna modding the game to play Muslims, then doing nothing but sending waves of Seljuks to caplture the City of Man's Desire...*