Accurate representation of the theme system?

[IVM.Firefly]

Hey, for modding purposes, I have been checking on the online maps of the Medieval Roman theme system, and I must say they are... diverse. Even if they show the same period. History may be my thing but an expert byzantologist, I am not. The period I am thinking of is the runup to the battle of Manzikert. What's your take? Here are some maps I already found.

This one is clearly the one used by Paradox, some notable features include Abydos being the Ducates being de-facto themes in the game, Boukellarion protruding to the east and the Optimatoi being basically just the area around Nicomedia, Kappadokia being verry narrow. And of course, this is a 1025 map, before the Romans took places like Edessa

A handdrawn one I found on tumblr, no clear date is given but my best bet is 1059. The detail is surprisngly high, with more cities and clearer boundaries... which differ quite heavily from the former map, particularily in Anatolia around Charsianon.
View attachment byzantine-theme-map-1059-en (1).jpg
And this one is one of many I found on https://lucius-note.net/. Looks almost identical to the 2nd map, with some differences in Abydos and the Georgian frontier. If these are more accurate than the 1st one, it would seem there are quite a lot of differences that could be made to base game to improve its historical accuracy. Hopefully this hasn't been extensively discussed elsewhere, as I found no such thread thus far. Would the game not benefit from a mod/patch that uses the 2nd or 3rd image as the de jure theme template? Any thoughts or more accurate resources to see?

 

[CrazyRat]

Very interesting. Though as for my personal opinion: it depends! If AI can take into account that the themes are unequal, and takes into account that a smaller, less prosperous theme may not be as desirable as a much bigger one, then it would be very interesting to see! (I don't know about AI decision making here.) Otherwise, I think I myself would prefer a setup that makes AI families work well over historical accuracy .

 

[Byzantium2000]

Hey, for modding purposes, I have been checking on the online maps of the Medieval Roman theme system, and I must say they are... diverse. Even if they show the same period. History may be my thing but an expert byzantologist, I am not. The period I am thinking of is the runup to the battle of Manzikert. What's your take? Here are some maps I already found.View attachment 1294168
This one is clearly the one used by Paradox, some notable features include Abydos being the Ducates being de-facto themes in the game, Boukellarion protruding to the east and the Optimatoi being basically just the area around Nicomedia, Kappadokia being verry narrow. And of course, this is a 1025 map, before the Romans took places like Edessa
View attachment 1294183
A handdrawn one I found on tumblr, no clear date is given but my best bet is 1059. The detail is surprisngly high, with more cities and clearer boundaries... which differ quite heavily from the former map, particularily in Anatolia around Charsianon.
View attachment 1294260
And this one is one of many I found on https://lucius-note.net/. Looks almost identical to the 2nd map, with some differences in Abydos and the Georgian frontier. If these are more accurate than the 1st one, it would seem there are quite a lot of differences that could be made to base game to improve its historical accuracy. Hopefully this hasn't been extensively discussed elsewhere, as I found no such thread thus far. Would the game not benefit from a mod/patch that uses the 2nd or 3rd image as the de jure theme template? Any thoughts or more accurate resources to see?

This has been discussed yes. The problem is the theme system doesn’t fit in paradox’s way of doing dejure setup. Paradox also doesn’t seem to have any interest in overhauling their provinces which you think would have happened in Roads to Power but instead we got a scuffed 1178

Here’s some other relevant maps

 

[IVM.Firefly]

This has been discussed yes. The problem is the theme system doesn’t fit in paradox’s way of doing dejure setup. Paradox also doesn’t seem to have any interest in overhauling their provinces which you think would have happened in Roads to Power but instead we got a scuffed 1178

Here’s some other relevant maps

View attachment 1294406
View attachment 1294408
View attachment 1294412

Thanks for the input! Man, these maps make the de jure setup even more complicated, especially in Eastern Anatolia. Its fascinating that these maps seem to contradict each other so much. Deciding which is more accurate map looks like a good starting point of a Phd thesis . I suppose the different functions of ducates and themes as well as the military/naval administration in places like Samos plays the main role in the discrepancy. Though I wonder what exactly you mean by Paradox's way of doing de jure. I get that some of the small themes work better as counties, not to mention that if Byzantium had successfully recovered Mesopotamia, their number and size would surely change. The existing setup seems far from ideal in its own right, with2 counties in d_cappadocia and almost a small kingdom's worth of counties in d_anatolikon. Do you think there is a place for a mod that addresses this? I already made some small changes like moving some baronies between counties, mostly around Armeniakon.
PS: It was strange to realize that Gangra is not even a part of the Paphlagonia theme/duchy in vanilla. Surely, that needs some attention...

 

[IVM.Firefly]

Very interesting. Though as for my personal opinion: it depends! If AI can take into account that the themes are unequal, and takes into account that a smaller, less prosperous theme may not be as desirable as a much bigger one, then it would be very interesting to see! (I don't know about AI decision making here.) Otherwise, I think I myself would prefer a setup that makes AI families work well over historical accuracy .

A fair point. A balance of sorts between de jure duchies is a matter of some concern. Having said that, I do think that this would be ideally addressed by a more dynamic de jure system regarding duchies alongside some AI recognition that some theoretically equal titles are better than others.

 

[Koppel235]

This has been discussed yes. The problem is the theme system doesn’t fit in paradox’s way of doing dejure setup. Paradox also doesn’t seem to have any interest in overhauling their provinces which you think would have happened in Roads to Power but instead we got a scuffed 1178

Here’s some other relevant maps

View attachment 1294406
View attachment 1294408
View attachment 1294412

Add them shafting Pronoia system at 1178 start too.