Adding More Provinces to Portuguese India

[SantoshKashyap]

Portuguese India included a number of enclaves on India's western coast, including Goa proper, as well as the coastal enclaves of Daman (Port: Damão) and Diu, and the enclaves of Dadra and Nagar Haveli, which lie inland from Daman. The territories of Portuguese India have sometimes been referred to collectively as Goa.

Mechanics for Goa is already in the game but other ports of Daman & Diu are not shown separately. Here is a map attached related to topic.

Also, islands of Lakshdweep are not shown well in EU4 map.

 

[3ishop]

Goa is the only one large enough to be represented in game.

 

[SantoshKashyap]

This could be a reason not to make additions.

If islands like St. Kitts with an area of 174 Square KM can be represented why can't Dadar & Nagar Haveli with an area of 491 Square KM be represented. Daman & Due are additional 112 Square KM.

Portuguese Goa represented Goa, Dadar & Nagar Haveli and Daman & Due. It should also be noted that entire Bombay (North Konkan) belonged to Portuguese once and it was handed over to Britain as dowry.

 

[3ishop]

It's abotu the size on the map. These would be too small to click on. Plus as many of them were trading posts/forts/ports and not control of the entire province it doesn't fit the EU4 system.

 

[salvameelito]

They dont necessarily need to be the exact size. The cities of Ceuta and Melilla are represented as much larger provinces then they actually were, and India is in dire need of more provinces so why not.

 

[3ishop]

They dont necessarily need to be the exact size. The cities of Ceuta and Melilla are represented as much larger provinces then they actually were, and India is in dire need of more provinces so why not.

Then it should have more provinces and not adding ports/forts that will be given to a European nation.

 

[salvameelito]

Then it should have more provinces and not adding ports/forts that will be given to a European nation.

Well yes, add more provinces which could later get an event to be given to Portugal. The nations don't have to accept them, there can be some benefits and some relations maluses, but I really do agree that the European trade power is hugely underrepresented in India and SE Asia

 

[Trin Tragula]

The reason these are not currently in the game is indeed that they would be very small compared to other provinces (and it's also not that clear that, for instance Diu, would actually have to be an important province in the first place in an alternate timeline). Still, if we ever were to expand the province count in India in general they would definitely warrant a second look. 1.20 will be a patch focused on East Asia though and so it won't have any map changes in India

and India is in dire need of more provinces so why not.

This comment makes me quite nostalgic
I believe it's the first time I hear it since the Art of War overhaul of the Non-European world (and where I was the one to overhaul the then much less detailed India).

 

[salvameelito]

This comment makes me quite nostalgic
I believe it's the first time I hear it since the Art of War overhaul of the Non-European world (and where I was the one to overhaul the then much less detailed India).

Yep, playing in India before Art of War was absolutely heinous and boring so thank you for fixing that up! However, as the rest of the map develops as well in newer patches, India is still staying the same. I realize India ain't getting no overhaul in Mandate of Heaven cause it's one region at a time, but that's why we're here debating what could be touched up next, and I believe it's time for India and/or West Africa to get some attention again.

 

[3ishop]

Well yes, add more provinces which could later get an event to be given to Portugal. The nations don't have to accept them, there can be some benefits and some relations maluses, but I really do agree that the European trade power is hugely underrepresented in India and SE Asia

But by that map they didn't get any other provinces. They get tiny fragments of them which are too small for the map and gameplay.

 

[SantoshKashyap]

Diu had been an important port for the Portuguese. The Portuguese had captured Diu in 1530. Soon Portuguese Navy obtained a dominant position in Arabian Sea. They passed a law forcing all ships coming to Gujarat to pay customs duty at Diu. Any ship was confiscated for not carrying a cartaz, or pass issued by them.

The Indian traders on western coast, conscious of the Portuguese domination of the seas, had to obtain from the Portuguese cartaz or passes for their ships on condition of payment of customs duties at a Portuguese controlled port of Diu. These passes were given liberally. In consequence, as the French historian Fernand Braudel points out, the Portuguese became customs officials, and customs revenue became a major source of the Portuguese enterprise.

 

[Grand Historian]

Wouldn't Portuguese India have to be a thing in-game before it even got more provinces?

 

[TheMeInTeam]

India doesn't need railroad provinces. If you want the game to have Europeans in India, have Europeans attack India.

Often they can't, however, because of disappointingly static power blocs that take player intervention to break up. India is among the most consistent "become 2-4 nations allied and sit there" regions. I often see them fall behind in institutions but Europeans don't take advantage because it's hard to beat someone 40 vs 150 even with a 2-3 tech lead...and most don't take expansion to put down claims.

 

[imvdm]

A better way around this is to have a new mechanic of trade posts for colonial powers. Kind of like the trade posts in CK2, where colonial powers can set up a trade outpost in the borders of friendly natives and resieve trade benefits as well as permanent docking right within the province, but the province for all other purpose belong to the native nation.

 

[Red Death]

Wouldn't Portuguese India have to be a thing in-game before it even got more provinces?

India doesn't need railroad provinces. If you want the game to have Europeans in India, have Europeans attack India.

Often they can't, however, because of disappointingly static power blocs that take player intervention to break up. India is among the most consistent "become 2-4 nations allied and sit there" regions. I often see them fall behind in institutions but Europeans don't take advantage because it's hard to beat someone 40 vs 150 even with a 2-3 tech lead...and most don't take expansion to put down claims.

Didn't europeans powers often acquire these kinds of trading ports through naval power, or threatening with said naval power? perhaps the game could use a mechanic for that historical dynamic. Unless I'm thinking of the wrong historical period?

 

[SantoshKashyap]

But by that map they didn't get any other provinces. They get tiny fragments of them which are too small for the map and gameplay.

There is no need to add all the ports. All of them are not so important and were lost soon. But four area remained under Portuguese for some 400 years. These are:

Goa - Already included.
Daman - Between Surat & North Konkan.
Dadar & Nagar Haveli - Please note that it is not a port but inland area to the south-east of Daman. (Area 491 Sq. KM).
Diu - Most important Portuguese Port in this area.

Daman and Dadar & Nagar Haveli are together and can be clubbed to make one province. (Between Surat & North Konkan) Together they will be over 550 Sq. KM.

So addition could be just two:

Diu
Daman and Dadar & Nagar Haveli

Let there also be an uncolonised tiny islands of Lakshadweep.

 

[SantoshKashyap]

 

[3ishop]

I'd still rather see it is a chain of events for different nations then just making provinces to give to Europe. Expand the provinces for the nations in India sure, but keep them relative for them and clickable.

Portugal, England/GB, France and Belgium/Netherlands should each have chain events for provinces there, first of the events along the line of setting up trade posts. This should give them trade power in that node and a modifier for the provinces goods produced. If the province owner allows them it then sets up a timer for other events. If they end up with negative relations the European nation could get a casus belli and take the province, if it remains positive they could expand the buisness giving them a province that's controlled by a trade company in exchange for a chunk of cash.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I'd still rather see it is a chain of events for different nations then just making provinces to give to Europe. Expand the provinces for the nations in India sure, but keep them relative for them and clickable.

Portugal, England/GB, France and Belgium/Netherlands should each have chain events for provinces there, first of the events along the line of setting up trade posts. This should give them trade power in that node and a modifier for the provinces goods produced. If the province owner allows them it then sets up a timer for other events. If they end up with negative relations the European nation could get a casus belli and take the province, if it remains positive they could expand the buisness giving them a province that's controlled by a trade company in exchange for a chunk of cash.

Don't attach it to TAG, attach it to idea group + holding land along the sailing route to India. That way randomly generated worlds and atypical tags can still do the missions if they meet the conditions, but in normal games with standard lucky nations it will usually be the ones you expect w/o player intervention.

 

[Metz]

The reason these are not currently in the game is indeed that they would be very small compared to other provinces (and it's also not that clear that, for instance Diu, would actually have to be an important province in the first place in an alternate timeline). Still, if we ever were to expand the province count in India in general they would definitely warrant a second look. 1.20 will be a patch focused on East Asia though and so it won't have any map changes in India



This comment makes me quite nostalgic
I believe it's the first time I hear it since the Art of War overhaul of the Non-European world (and where I was the one to overhaul the then much less detailed India).

No addition of the natives to the Philippines?