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Twoflower

Vile treacherous Judas
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Nov 7, 2001
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Will edit this post as soon as some conclusion has been reached.

Countries:

INC Inca Empire
CHM Chimu
??? Collo
??? Chanca
??? Quito

Culture setup:

Quechua for the initial territories of the Inca Empire and the Chanca. Later, as the Inca Empire expands, several provinces are assimilated and turn Quechua as well
Aymara for the territory of Collo
Chibchaya in Cali and for all natives in Ecuador and Colombia
Chimu for the territory of the Chimu
 
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Something definitely needs to be done about South America. Especially when comparing it to the complex political framework of historical pre-Columbian South America, it is currently an incredibly dull place, with just two countries, and playing the Inca is far from being as interesting as it could and should be. Of course, how much can be done depends on the number of tags that can be used - and I understand that this number should not exceed 3-4. Basically, like the Aztecs, the Inca Empire starts out ridiculously big in 1419. In fact, despite having already started to expand and become a significant local power in the Sierra, the Peruvian mountain area, the Inca Empire (or correctly Tahuantinsuyu) was not even in this area yet a hegemonial power. There were several political entities around them, some of which were merely tribes, some free cities, but also one rising state that was at this point comparable (or even superior) to the Inca Empire, the Chanca. In the 1430s, the Chanca invaded the Inca, demanding complete submission, and actually (at least according to Inca chronicles, that may of course be suspected of exaggerating the threat posed by the Chanca in order to amplify their eventual victory) they seemed to be competent of dealing a deadly blow to the Inca. The Inca's allies and vassals, expecting the Chanca to win and unwilling to risk their own extinction, did nothing, and it was due to something close to a miracle and the extraordinary skills of the future Inca Pachacuti, Cusi Yupanqui, that the attack on Cuzco was beaten back, the fleeing Chanca army was destroyed and Cusi Yupanqui, now supported by the Inca's allies and vassals, overran the Chanca state and annexed it to the Inca Empire. Simulating the struggle for hegemony in the Sierra between the Inca and the Chanca would certainly be interesting and pose a challenge to the Inca player. Looking at the provinces, I would have the Inca start out with Cuzco and Manu (of which the province capital should be Machu Picchu) and the Chanca with Ayacucho, Atalaya and Montana. In order to make the Inca likely to prevail in an ai vs ai situation, Cusi Yupanqui / Pachacuti should be quite an awesome leader. Later, after the Chanca had become part of the Inca army, Pachacuti decided he needed to rid himself of them forever and ordered his Inca soldiers to kill all Chanca while they were asleep. The Chanca were however warned, fled and seized what is called today the Montana area where they survived and beat back all Inca attacks until the Spanish arrived, i.e. they would become independent again in the Montana province.
South of the Sierra area that was the nucleus of the Inca Empire were the so called Collo states, populated by Aymara people. In the beginning of Viracocha's (the father of Pachacuti) reign it was a political patchwork, divided into many small states, permanently in conflict with each other. The two most powerful of them who were able and eager to unite the Aymara lands were the Collo Empire, centered in Hatuncolla, and Lupaca with its capital in Chucuito. Around 1420 Collo was decisively defeated by Lupaca, which had allied with the Inca. While the Inca were fighting the Chanca, the Lupaca rulers Cari and Chuchi Capac consolidated their Empire, subduing most other Collo states, and built a central administration in Hatuncolla. Their territory extended roughly from the area around lake Titicaca to the Atacama desert in the south, and close to the location of Lima in the north. Around 1450 Pachacuti attacked the Collo state and in a very toughly fought and bloody campaign conquered Hatuncolla and captured Chuchi Capac, thus annexing the Collo territories. Although it could be interesting to simulate the fragmentation of the Collo states and their unification with 4 or 5 countries in the region, this would be too tag-consumptory; for our purposes it will suffice to have one "Collo" country covering the whole region that starts out decentralized and has several tough events.
In the north, it could be interesting to have Quito as an independent state in the province of Cali. It was an quite ancient state, ruled by "Scyrs" (equivalent to Kings), with a rather large army, its capital, Quito, the third most prosperous city of pre-Columbian South America (after Cuzco and Chan-Chan) and its authority - they were entirely independent of the Chimu - almost unchallenged in today's Ecuador.
The Chimu Empire should own Huanuco (city Chan-Chan), Cajamarca and Guyaquil (city Tumbes). Cajamarca and Tumbes could in fact be independent vassals of the Chimu (they were quite autonomous and conquered earlier, without support from Chan-Chan), but that would definitely be overdoing it.
This would add up to three required new tags in South America for the countries of Chanca, Collo and Quito.
 
Sounds interesting. :)

My only question would concern the relative importance of the Quito 'nation' as did it do much during its existence or would we have another situation where we have a minor state that just introduces problems (Ragusa)?
 
Originally posted by Garbon
My only question would concern the relative importance of the Quito 'nation' as did it do much during its existence or would we have another situation where we have a minor state that just introduces problems (Ragusa)?

Reasons for having Quito are that Chimu should definitely not own the area and city - both because it is wrong and because it makes them too strong and too tough to take out for the Inca -, that the Kingdom (or actually Scyrdom) played quite an active role, that it, since it is supposed to be taken out, can be hardly as problematic as Ragusa, that the tag could also be used in the Inca Civil war for Atahualpa's holdings in the north, centered in Quito - that at that time became the primary city of South America, and that Quito, due to its importance and size and because it was held by quite an organized state, should not be held by natives.
 
Originally posted by Twoflower
... that the tag could also be used in the Inca Civil war for Atahualpa's holdings in the north, centered in Quito...
Would be nice, this have been discussed in the EEP thread. The idea was something similar to what Johnny Canuck had planned for England, but with less problems since Inca is isolated and the number of provinces that can be owned is severely limited.
 
Originally posted by Twoflower
Reasons for having Quito are that Chimu should definitely not own the area and city - both because it is wrong and because it makes them too strong and too tough to take out for the Inca -, that the Kingdom (or actually Scyrdom) played quite an active role, that it, since it is supposed to be taken out, can be hardly as problematic as Ragusa, that the tag could also be used in the Inca Civil war for Atahualpa's holdings in the north, centered in Quito - that at that time became the primary city of South America, and that Quito, due to its importance and size and because it was held by quite an organized state, should not be held by natives.

Okay. :cool:
 
I presume these tags you'll be using will come from the gutted entrails of the NA tribes, yes? :D
Seriously, though, this is all cool stuff. I like it.
 
http://www.cdis.org/~jd4031/mkjsetup.jpg

Kingdom of Quito:
http://www.fuerzasarmadasecuador.org/english/historia/reinoquito.htm
A small but powerful state far to the north, and one of the last to be conquered by the Inca.

The Cañar (capital Hatun): http://www.cuencanet.com/ingapirca/referentese.htm
Along with Quito, one of the premiere civilizations in modern Equador. Destroyed by the Inca.

The Cuismancu (capital Chancay):
http://www.aol.bartleby.com/65/ch/Chancay.html
The most advanced andean civilization, more so even than the Inca, yet conquered by them nonetheless. Even so, they were the last state in central Peru to fall to the Inca. The Cuismancu were heavily influenced by the Chimu.

The Chincha (capital Ica):
http://www.aol.bartleby.com/65/ic/Ica.html
The Chincha were an early rival of the Inca Empire, yet fell eventually to the Inca.

The Chanca (capital Huamanga):
Deadly adversaries to the Inca, they nearly defeated them, and could have themselves become the premiere power in South America.

The Chachapoya (capital Vilaya):
http://home.earthlink.net/~fciampa/webdoc7.htm
One of the oldest of the Andean civilizations, the Chachapoya were allies of the Chanca, which led to their conquest by the Inca.

The Chibcha are in hindsight probably not developed enough for inclusion, as they were only slightly more advanced than the Iroquois..
 
The Cuismancu (capital Chancay)

Some sources I have found say they were conquered 1430 but here's another one:
The Chancay culture (1200-1450 A.D.) reigned mainly in the valleys of Chancay and Chillon on the middle coast of Peru. In the early 15th century the Chimú state conquered parts of southern Chancay area, and round about the year 1450 the Incas occupied both areas.
The most trustworthy piece was a 15 page article about Cuismancu in Spanish, from Peru. It states that they were finally incorporated into Inca by 1470.

chymapa.gif
 
(Moved over from the North America thread)
I don't think I entirely agree with MKJ's setup in South America. The Chanca were actually west, not east of the Inca (my sources say they were centered in Peru's Vilcas province and close to the city of Abancay - which is both west of Cuzco and Machu Picchu). The lake Titicaca area and the southern coast from Lima up to the Atacama desert were occupied by the Aymara cultured Collo states, among which two, Lupaca and the "Collo Empire" were fairly highly developed, had rather important capitals in Chucuito and Hatuncolla and in the beginning of the 15th century battled for hegemony in the Aymara areas - a fight that involved also the Inca Viracocha who was allied with Lupaca. I'm not sure whether Cuismancu, Canar, Chincha, Chachapoya and Chibcha should really be countries; afaik these were not much more than native confederacies; for the sake of consistency and fairness they would not really deserve inclusion when we are cutting the NA natives. The really important urban centers on the coast were Pachacamac, Chan-Chan, Cajamarca, Tumbes and Quito, and these would be owned by the Collo, the Chimu or Quito.
 
Actually I didn't include any states that didn't have numerous cities, a centralized capital, and real infrastructure, though the Chibcha are out if we're not adding the Iroquois.

You are correct however in stating that there are several errors I see now, I'll have to correct those.
 
Originally posted by Mad King James
Actually I didn't include any states that didn't have numerous cities, a centralized capital, and real infrastructure, though the Chibcha are out if we're not adding the Iroquois.

You are correct however in stating that there are several errors I see now, I'll have to correct those.

Well then you should definitely have included the Collo, or perhaps even Lupaca and Collo. As already mentioned this area had at least three quite important urban centers - Chucuito and Hatuncolla as capitals of the Lupaca and the Collo Empire and Pachacamac, the "Delphi of South America" that was a really important place of pilgrimage well into the Spanish age and the united Aymara / Collo Empire that emerged after the Lupaca destroyed Collo was both a fairly organized state and a really tough opponent for the Inca. Implementing the initial conflict for hegemony between Lupaca and Collo could be a pretty nice touch, especially because Incan intervention is possible and historical, but might be too much considering that it needs one more tag.
 
Originally posted by Mad King James
Pachacamac was owned and operated by the Cuismancu, until of course they were conquered.

Btw, from what source exactly do you get the information that the Cuismancu were "the most advanced Andean civilization, more so even than the Inca"? I'd deem that statement highly questionable, to say the least. Nevertheless it might be good to have the Aymara and coastal area slightly more fragmented than in my initial proposal, since a 6 province Collo state might be quite hard to take out for the Inca.
As far as my information goes, in an ideal world we'd have this (prolly too tag consumptory) 1419 setup:
Inca: Cuzco, Manu
Chanca: Ayacucho, Atalaya
Collo: Titicaca, Arequipa
Lupaca: Potosi, Moquega, Arica
Chincha or Cuismancu: Lima
Chimu: Huanuco, Cajamarca, Guayaquil
Cajamarca: Montana
Quito: Cali
Azuay has a rather large and aggressive native population, representing the Canari
 
peru.jpg


In 1419 the Cuismancu posessed all the cultural treasures, and had the greatest cities. The Inca would rapidly change all that mind you...
Don't forget; the Cuismancu are the direct descendants of the Huari, along with their cousins the Chimu.

By the way, why give the Lupanca so much territory? All their cities were on the shores of lake Titicaca.
 
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Collo or Aymara states occupied not just the area around Lake Titicaca, Titicaca was only its core. According to Miroslav Stingl's "The Inca Empire" (originally in Czech) the authority of the united Collo Empire extended " from the West border of Bolivia to the shores of the Pacific, from the Atacama desert to around the location of the Peruvian city of Puno". Puno is just a few miles north of Arequipa.
If there is just one conglomerate Collo state, it ought to be called "Collo", not Lupaca.
Btw, Montana should be owned by either the Chimu or (in a perfect world) by an independent Kingdom of Cajamarca.
 
I just stumbled upon an excellent source in the internet:
http://assets.cambridge.org/0521807824/sample/0521807824WS.pdf
Especially have a look at the map on page 16 and the information on the Collo / Aymara states from p. 15-20. Somewhat contradictory to other sources saying that the Lupaca united everything, but well...
 
Sounds to me like 'greater Aymara' was pretty much dependent chiefdoms. The lake was more than the core it seems, it was the essential heart.

Also, Colla and Lupaca were the biggest kingdoms, but the people as a whole are usually referred to as 'Aymara' in my research, not Colla (which, as you already know, is but one of the kingdoms)

All the maps I've seen of Aymaran cities, they're all crammed on the western shore of Lake Titicaca.
 
Will the Inca (or whoever) be changed so that colonization up to the Inca 1520 boundaries will take place?