AI Refuses to Hate Me...

[Illutian]

So, first off I modify my savegame files to give myself 'The Chosen' trait so I can play as 'myself'; I just can't "stick with it" once Illutian dies.
Second off, I like to play as a 'defeated world', which means I run a very small empire of usually no more than 3 systems. I counter this by giving myself the Surveyor and Rubricator to handle resources and solving Precursor chains.

As part of the roleplay, I pick Cooperative Expansion and Cautious first contact. Now with the new origins, I'm also in a Fiefdom.

However, I've noticed that the AI straight up refuses to directly declare war on me. ...even Purifiers.

I'm not sure if this was a change from when I first got Stellaris (thanks SpiffingBrit for getting me hooked!). Back then the AI just straight up hated me and stole my lunch money at every opportunity. But starting around 2020'ish, the AI just stopped declaring war on me; Grand Admiral, Aggressive AI, Insults, Harming Relations. Nothing has managed to piss off the neighbors enough to make them want to burn my empire to ash.

...what I do get is a lot of Guaranteed Independence from like everyone.

This got me wondering if the AI was retooled to no wardec a player if they were seen as objectively weaker (small empire, small fleet). Of it's an interaction with The Chosen trait and Cooperative Expansion.

This "issue" (??) is what got me into modding; every on the search for an AI mod that would make the AI a Skynet again.

 

[Losttruppen]

2220 is pretty early(2020 is very early, Pre-FTL), how long does this reign of pacifism last?

You haven't given much detail so it's hard to know; are the Empires that hate you able to reach you? Do you have huge Bastion Starbases on these 3 Systems and a comparable Fleet? The AI will mostly avoid hardpoints, and even moving your Fleet to their border will stop them from the War Preparation Event they added recently. They might also just be busy somewhere else, or don't have the resources. What are your Galaxy Settings? Setting the Habitable Worlds Slider on low numbers will have a huge effect on the AI's snowball capabilities, and they don't specialize worlds very well so more is better if you want a challenge.

The recent Tech rework also really slowed things down, so if you've given yourself a bunch of shiny stuff before 2220 you're still up against at most 40-60 Corvette Fleets with basic poorly optimized Components.

 

[Illutian]

2220 is pretty early(2020 is very early, Pre-FTL), how long does this reign of pacifism last?

You haven't given much detail so it's hard to know; are the Empires that hate you able to reach you? Do you have huge Bastion Starbases on these 3 Systems and a comparable Fleet? The AI will mostly avoid hardpoints, and even moving your Fleet to their border will stop them from the War Preparation Event they added recently. They might also just be busy somewhere else, or don't have the resources. What are your Galaxy Settings? Setting the Habitable Worlds Slider on low numbers will have a huge effect on the AI's snowball capabilities, and they don't specialize worlds very well so more is better if you want a challenge.

The recent Tech rework also really slowed things down, so if you've given yourself a bunch of shiny stuff before 2220 you're still up against at most 40-60 Corvette Fleets with basic poorly optimized Components.

Sorry, 2020 as in the our year (IRL). It's around that time that I purchased Stellaris plus some of the DLC that was on sale. - I forgot that Stellaris went into the early 2000s.

This is from start of the game all the way through the final Crisis era.

The empires are literally everyone. Even the Fallen will be like "give us [insert person]". I refuse, and they'll just sit over there mad. I've been neighbors to Purifiers that are 'Hostile' (full bar) and I can insult them infinitely with claims and they're just like "you wouldn't last two minutes against us, don't push your luck!" (over and over and over).

As for Starbases, because I do a 'small empire' I have all Bastions with full Platforms; something around 100k power or so at the peak before I get bored and start over. But the AI will have multiple 200k+ power fleets. Meanwhile, I might have a 80k fleet or two because I'm silly and believe Corvette still serve a purpose in Battleship fleets. - I'm very RP'ish in this game because it's a fun 'grand strategy' game for me.

I have never had the War Preparation Event; I know of it. I only keep a small (1k) fleet on the "border" with the main fleet at the home world. So it should probably get triggered. But, like I mentioned, everyone immediately guarantees my Independence once the Overlord Empire collapses (origin event).

Game Settings, that I can think of as impacting AI hostility chances: Grand Admiral, Aggressive AI (High), Advanced Neighbors. Habitable Worlds setting is "x2". Advanced AI is off because I use Spying to "procure" tech, but I don't want it to be crazy. Nor do I want a singular empire to snowball and take out all the other empires.

Meanwhile, there's wars being declared nearly every auto Save.

As for resources using the "play" command I've jumped around to help setup the stage for the start of the game or to stop a war because I want to do something. And they'll all have like 10k+ in things like Alloys, where I'm only at around 1k; so the stipend the devs give seems to be keeping them well-fed. - It's really annoying that AI actively tries to blow it's own foot off, it seems.....

EDIT: lol...just had Slaving Despots guarantee my independence. - I'm Auth, Milit, Mater. But still...funny that slavers are like "yo, you should be independent".

 

[Zergor]

I can see two reasons but I don't know if those contribute that much or are really at fault :

-You seem to modify the game a bit, does your modification skip the discovery events of your neighbors. I found that usually that generate a lot of friction (aggressive empire will usually attack your science ship and give a huge negative modifier for a rocky start.
-You empire is small, maybe it does not generate enough friction with shared borders.

An other thing I can imagine is fiefdom messing with diplomacy. As a vassal you usually don't generate a lot of hatred and when the main empire will eventually crumble I can imagine that most civs would be neutral.
I don't know how it's coded but I found that even for AI, small empires that gain independance usually receive an independance garanteed from one empire. And when one is given it's almost a garantee that noone will attack you because you+the big empire is not a great matchup for many civs.

If you want to be attacked, insults and harm relations are your friends. Declaring rivalry with half the galaxy usually does the trick.

 

[Troyen]

I think your playstyle is probably the cause, maybe the goodies as well.

Early game AI empires like to rival the first empire they meet (for the extra influence) regardless of ethics. After that it sorts out depending on ethic compatibility or befriending rivals of their rivals. As expansion fills up, border friction starts adding to the negative relations and if you get negative enough (I forget for regular empires but it's -200 for Fallen Empires) and if the AI thinks they overpower you, they'll declare war.

Not only are you starting as a vassal, which makes rivaling you a bad idea, you're also limited to three systems (less border friction and less likely to have your systems be claimed), AND you're running Cooperative stance for an additional -50% border friction. So it's no wonder everyone likes you. You didn't mention ethics, but I'm guessing given the Cooperative stance it's probably not Xenophobe. If you're not conquering or fighting wars yourself, you're missing out on the threat and terror bombing negative opinion modifiers too, not to mention slaving or purging. And the few empires that might see you as lunchmeat (like genocidals) are probably deterred by all the Guarantee Independence claims you're racking up.

You could share your contact screen showing the relations and relative power of the major players in the galaxy and that would help confirm our assumptions about your game state. But with that setup, I think the biggest threat to you is probably going to be the mid and end-game crises, because they care not for your diplomacy.

You could try the Pompous Purists civic. It blocks other empires from initiating diplomacy towards you - which means both rivalries and Guarantee Independence. I don't know how well it plays with the Imperial Fiefdom origin since it might mess with your overlord's contact, but it doesn't look explicitly prohibited on the wiki.

 

[Illutian]

I can see two reasons but I don't know if those contribute that much or are really at fault :

-You seem to modify the game a bit, does your modification skip the discovery events of your neighbors. I found that usually that generate a lot of friction (aggressive empire will usually attack your science ship and give a huge negative modifier for a rocky start.
-You empire is small, maybe it does not generate enough friction with shared borders.

An other thing I can imagine is fiefdom messing with diplomacy. As a vassal you usually don't generate a lot of hatred and when the main empire will eventually crumble I can imagine that most civs would be neutral.
I don't know how it's coded but I found that even for AI, small empires that gain independance usually receive an independance garanteed from one empire. And when one is given it's almost a garantee that noone will attack you because you+the big empire is not a great matchup for many civs.

If you want to be attacked, insults and harm relations are your friends. Declaring rivalry with half the galaxy usually does the trick.

Only mods I've consistently done (aka before and after getting Community Mods) was to give my leader (playing as myself) The Chosen trait since, at the time, it was the only Organic immortal trait. - I figured giving any of the machine immortal traits might bug the character.

And the Surveyor and Rubricator since I intentionally limit the number of start systems, which goes completely opposite of what the devs intend you to do; they want you to expand.

Fiefdom isn't the cause because this was happening way before Necroids DLC.

Ya, like I've stated. I do the Harms, Insults, Claims, (I'll add Rivalry since I left that out). There's only two ways I get a war declared against me. Either I'm in a Federation or I am a Vassal with the "come to the aid of Overlord agreement" / I have a war pact (Defensive or Guaranteed Independence). Outside of those, the worst the AI does is close their borders...even at full 'Hostile'.

Note: When I first started playing back around 2020 (purchase date), the AI was ruthless even on the 'normal difficulty'. My first "round" I was next to a Fallen Empire and they made some demands (forget what), but eventually declared war against me and (naturally being only like 30 minutes into the game) obliterated me. Second "round" a non-Fallen demanded systems; refused, War declared...eventually I was defeated. This was all within the first hour of a "round" starting. So, at least back then, the AI didn't care if you were a small empire. If you were a player, you were dead. (lol)

 

[Illutian]

I think your playstyle is probably the cause, maybe the goodies as well.

Early game AI empires like to rival the first empire they meet (for the extra influence) regardless of ethics. After that it sorts out depending on ethic compatibility or befriending rivals of their rivals. As expansion fills up, border friction starts adding to the negative relations and if you get negative enough (I forget for regular empires but it's -200 for Fallen Empires) and if the AI thinks they overpower you, they'll declare war.

Not only are you starting as a vassal, which makes rivaling you a bad idea, you're also limited to three systems (less border friction and less likely to have your systems be claimed), AND you're running Cooperative stance for an additional -50% border friction. So it's no wonder everyone likes you. You didn't mention ethics, but I'm guessing given the Cooperative stance it's probably not Xenophobe. If you're not conquering or fighting wars yourself, you're missing out on the threat and terror bombing negative opinion modifiers too, not to mention slaving or purging. And the few empires that might see you as lunchmeat (like genocidals) are probably deterred by all the Guarantee Independence claims you're racking up.

You could share your contact screen showing the relations and relative power of the major players in the galaxy and that would help confirm our assumptions about your game state. But with that setup, I think the biggest threat to you is probably going to be the mid and end-game crises, because they care not for your diplomacy.

You could try the Pompous Purists civic. It blocks other empires from initiating diplomacy towards you - which means both rivalries and Guarantee Independence. I don't know how well it plays with the Imperial Fiefdom origin since it might mess with your overlord's contact, but it doesn't look explicitly prohibited on the wiki.

Note: This will be out of order in responses.

It might be the Cooperative Expansion. If so that really sucks. Because, as a "defeated people". I don't feel like we'd be Belligerent. Also, since, as a "defeated people", we'd be looking for allies...so Isolationist is a bad 'fit'. - You'd think Aggressive AI (High) would counter a lot of the "let's be friends" modifiers in the game.

Note: Might go for Expansionist since the description does basically say "we're not looking for trouble, but would like to grow". Might go for that since I'm now no longer a vassal; fits the theme of a reemergent empire.

Being around 2267 now, the Contacts screen is pretty filled. So I'll opt for a text output:

-125, -114, -85 -65, -55, -19; the rest are all 40+ in their Relations. Of the 43 empires (I'm 44th) all but 4 are either Equivalent or Inferior; most are Overwhelming. 11 Appear to have a rivalry with me. There's 3 wars going on, 1 is guaranteeing my independence, with another one having a Defensive Pact with me.

Note: However, as mentioned before, I've had games where Empires were 'fully' Hostile towards me and still would not declare war.

I have no Envoys improving Relations (all are spying).

Diplo weight from Fleet is only 28; total Diplo is 387; Galactic Council has been formed, no market yet.

Ethics are: Authoritarian, Militarist, and Materialist.
Civics are, in keeping with the theme: Warrior Culture, Aristocratic Elite; focusing on Ascensions before reforming and will do so when the Civic point is available (it'll be Distinguished Admiralty)

As for Crisis...ya..I've not been all that impressed with it. It starts out strong, but then the galaxy focuses it and beats it into submission...even on max Crisis modifier (x25). Which is why I got the mod Aggressive Crisis Engine. Hopefully that'll make it do more than just sit around after being defeated until it's "main base" is wiped out.

I also want to reiterate that this "No One Hates Me" started even before the Necroid DLC was released. It seems to have started after intentionally limiting my empire size, which also saw me using The Chosen trait as a way to keep myself "in the game" (and thus my interest in playing). - Fairly certain they did an AI revision at some point. But I don't keep up with the patch notes.


((Hopefully I didn't miss any details. Yo, Paradox, be sweet if there was like a "print out" we could make that would have all the details but not the "savegame data" in case we want to share our setups for other's to try or to diagnosis a problem.))

 

[Troyen]

They did a major AI revision in 3.2-3.4 (Aquatics through Overlord) but for most players this actually made the AI active. I started playing back in 2.6 (Federations) and the AI then was much more passive because it was terrible at building any semblance of economy.

Of the empires that hate you, how many of them are actually close to you? -200 is the dangerous hostile threshold, but if the empire that hates you doesn't have any adjacent borders, there's little reason for them to declare war. What do your neighbors think?

(I actually think we missed focusing on this aspect earlier. AI doesn't generally hop empires to attack another empire unless they're dragged in via a Federation or they're forcibly scripted to like with Payback and MSI. Three systems means you don't have many neighbors.)

As for Crisis...ya..I've not been all that impressed with it. It starts out strong, but then the galaxy focuses it and beats it into submission...even on max Crisis modifier (x25). Which is why I got the mod Aggressive Crisis Engine. Hopefully that'll make it do more than just sit around after being defeated until it's "main base" is wiped out.

This seems highly unusual. I play unmodded on Commodore and a 4x crisis is about the limit of what I've seen the AI empires can handle when united. 25x is such a massive jump in fleet stats that I don't see how the galaxy could fight back, unless you've extended your game length into the 3000s or so.

Are you sure you aren't running mods that mess with fleet tech, AI behaviors, etc.?

 

[Illutian]

They did a major AI revision in 3.2-3.4 (Aquatics through Overlord) but for most players this actually made the AI active. I started playing back in 2.6 (Federations) and the AI then was much more passive because it was terrible at building any semblance of economy.

Of the empires that hate you, how many of them are actually close to you? -200 is the dangerous hostile threshold, but if the empire that hates you doesn't have any adjacent borders, there's little reason for them to declare war. What do your neighbors think?

(I actually think we missed focusing on this aspect earlier. AI doesn't generally hop empires to attack another empire unless they're dragged in via a Federation or they're forcibly scripted to like with Payback and MSI. Three systems means you don't have many neighbors.)


This seems highly unusual. I play unmodded on Commodore and a 4x crisis is about the limit of what I've seen the AI empires can handle when united. 25x is such a massive jump in fleet stats that I don't see how the galaxy could fight back, unless you've extended your game length into the 3000s or so.

Are you sure you aren't running mods that mess with fleet tech, AI behaviors, etc.?

Not sure what counts as "neighbor" (is it border touching or does hyperlane connection only count).

Either way, the 3 empires whose borders touch mine are +400, with one being "Protective"; other two are Friendly. But as mentioned, I've had games where the neighbors where hostile with borders closed, and it didn't matter.

Well, like I said, the galaxy would unite, and their 200k+ fleets would mop the floor (slowly) with the Crisis (Contingency and Unbidden I for-sure remember). Then the Empires would just sit around and leave the "main base" of the Crisis alone the rest of the game.

I run mods now because the stock game was extremely boring, after an apparent AI update. But the only AI mod I run now is ACE. -- Startech & StarNET appear to be defunct, and those are the only ones I'm aware that besides ACE that modify how the AI behaves. But like I said, this happens in "vanilla" Stellaris.

...I think it's a bug because I'm positive the dev team never imagined someone would kneecap their empire by limiting its expansion into a multi-system empire.

PS: Checked the archive, and it looks like I first started playing in 2016 with the Stellaris: Galaxy Edition. So...any updates to the AI between then and 2020, when I bought a bunch of the DLC on sale. And I would say it was probably in 2020 that I noticed the AI being way more docile.

 

[Thiend]

My guess without testing is that the stuff you're doing to manage the start and the lack of expansion you want while still getting resources internally is making your empire rate as too strong for them, so they're not starting wars they expect to lose.

You're also probably too strong to rival until past when they all have three rivals for much the same reasons of the modded start.

The AI was improved to not joyfully kill itself against much stronger opponents between when you say this last worked and now, so that's probably it. You're making yourself strong enough they can't win, so they won't declare a war with the expected outcome that they lose.

 

[Losttruppen]

If an AI wants your 3 Systems they need to be able to get their Fleets there, to afford the Influence costs, and to calculate a win over your forces; yours are probably really expensive, really well defended, and hard to get to, resulting in them deciding to do something else instead. The AI won't go out of it's way to attack you if you turtle too hard, they will come back with overwhelming force or not at all.

 

[Illutian]

My guess without testing is that the stuff you're doing to manage the start and the lack of expansion you want while still getting resources internally is making your empire rate as too strong for them, so they're not starting wars they expect to lose.

You're also probably too strong to rival until past when they all have three rivals for much the same reasons of the modded start.

The AI was improved to not joyfully kill itself against much stronger opponents between when you say this last worked and now, so that's probably it. You're making yourself strong enough they can't win, so they won't declare a war with the expected outcome that they lose.

I mean...nearly everyone is 'Overwhelming' in Economy, Tech, and Military compared to me. And I do get rivalries, but that's as far as it goes in terms of hostility.

Like there's an AI Empire with a 111k power fleet that's roaming around...I have a combined fleet power of 9k. - Granted, I'm "Friendly" with them. But if one empire has that I'm sure others do that I just haven't paid attention to.

So unless Surveyor, Rubricator, and Chosen add some kind of "hidden" weight to my empire's strength. I'm an easy kill.

 

[Illutian]

If an AI wants your 3 Systems they need to be able to get their Fleets there, to afford the Influence costs, and to calculate a win over your forces; yours are probably really expensive, really well defended, and hard to get to, resulting in them deciding to do something else instead. The AI won't go out of it's way to attack you if you turtle too hard, they will come back with overwhelming force or not at all.

9k power fleet (across 2 fleets) and a 10k Starhold.

At least one empire already has a 111k (power) fleet.

And this, also, happens when most of the empires had 200k+ (power) fleet.

I'm seriously thinking Paradox redid the AI to leave "newbies" alone while they build up. Because when I first started (back in 2016 according to my earliest purchase of a "Stellaris" product) the AI just couldn't wait to dunk me in the toilet.

But they didn't take into account that some might intentionally limit their gameplay because the 'base game' hasn't been all that challenging if you can make it ~20yrs into the game; barring some whacky spawn placements.

 

[Thiend]

I mean...nearly everyone is 'Overwhelming' in Economy, Tech, and Military compared to me. And I do get rivalries, but that's as far as it goes in terms of hostility.

Like there's an AI Empire with a 111k power fleet that's roaming around...I have a combined fleet power of 9k. - Granted, I'm "Friendly" with them. But if one empire has that I'm sure others do that I just haven't paid attention to.

So unless Surveyor, Rubricator, and Chosen add some kind of "hidden" weight to my empire's strength. I'm an easy kill.

You've probably encountered the opposite problem then, which is that the AI usually isn't willing to declare war if they're threatened at all on anything except the threat. They don't like being at war, and therefore theoretically vulnerable, if they have an existing threat they need their fleet for if a war starts.

So if they're running around d with 100k fleets, there's probably not an empire out there that considers you enough of a problem to remove while their rivals have comparable fleets to their own.

The fact you even can rival such empires may in fact mean the stuff you've consoled in is making you rate as stronger though, I wouldn't normally expect an empire with 1/10 the fleet to be capable of rivalry.

Or it's still possible they straight up can't reach you. I wasn't clear - you've given yourself the Chosen diplomacy modifier, did you also put yourself in their cluster?

 

[Illutian]

You've probably encountered the opposite problem then, which is that the AI usually isn't willing to declare war if they're threatened at all on anything except the threat. They don't like being at war, and therefore theoretically vulnerable, if they have an existing threat they need their fleet for if a war starts.

So if they're running around d with 100k fleets, there's probably not an empire out there that considers you enough of a problem to remove while their rivals have comparable fleets to their own.

The fact you even can rival such empires may in fact mean the stuff you've consoled in is making you rate as stronger though, I wouldn't normally expect an empire with 1/10 the fleet to be capable of rivalry.

Or it's still possible they straight up can't reach you. I wasn't clear - you've given yourself the Chosen diplomacy modifier, did you also put yourself in their cluster?

Rivalries peter out after the first few decades; probably because of the Empire "strength" disparity, as you mentioned. - I never rival anyone unless I'm bored and looking to start a lil trouble....which as you can tell by this forum post never goes anywhere. So all the Rivalries come from the AI and usually deal with the Ideological Difference rivalry.

It's definitely possible potential enemies can't reach me without going through another Empire (which might have borders closed to them). But since it's every Empire, including those that are suppose to hate everyone (Purifiers). That's what made me question if it's a bug, brought on by how I'm playing [as an ultra-small empire].

As for Chosen it's this: https://stellaris.paradoxwikis.com/Common_leader_traits#Chosen_One
I don't see anything about it impacting Diplomacy.

As for my location, it's where ever the game spawns me, and I do not have it set to spawn us all together.

 

[Thiend]

Rivalries peter out after the first few decades; probably because of the Empire "strength" disparity, as you mentioned. - I never rival anyone unless I'm bored and looking to start a lil trouble....which as you can tell by this forum post never goes anywhere. So all the Rivalries come from the AI and usually deal with the Ideological Difference rivalry.

It's definitely possible potential enemies can't reach me without going through another Empire (which might have borders closed to them). But since it's every Empire, including those that are suppose to hate everyone (Purifiers). That's what made me question if it's a bug, brought on by how I'm playing [as an ultra-small empire].

As for Chosen it's this: https://stellaris.paradoxwikis.com/Common_leader_traits#Chosen_One
I don't see anything about it impacting Diplomacy.

As for my location, it's where ever the game spawns me, and I do not have it set to spawn us all together.

The Chosen are also an event-spawned fanatical purifier in an isolated cluster reachable by a single wormhole, so... you meant Chosen One, but you just said 'the Chosen.'

That is presumably not the issue, but it still may be any combination of other issues.

 

[Troyen]

It's definitely possible potential enemies can't reach me without going through another Empire (which might have borders closed to them). But since it's every Empire, including those that are suppose to hate everyone (Purifiers). That's what made me question if it's a bug, brought on by how I'm playing [as an ultra-small empire].

If they aren't adjacent to you, they're going to go for your neighbors instead of you. Even purifiers don't hop empires. Try angering one of your adjacent neighbors, assuming they still overpower you. Tank their relations to hostile, put claims on their systems (even if you don't intend to enforce them), etc. It breaks your RP a bit, but you're trying to science out why the AI is reluctant to go for you.

With three systems this might not also matter (since I suspect your friendly neighbors will just surround you), but you could also try a game on max hyperlanes. That would eliminate any chokepoints in the galaxy, giving slightly more access to your space.

Whenever I do single sector underdog runs (with neighbors that hate me), I can bait the AI into attacking, but I also play in crowded galaxies with few chokepoints so I often have 3-5 neighbors, which means there's a variety of diplomatic relations for me to interact with.

 

[Illutian]

but I also play in crowded galaxies with few chokepoints so I often have 3-5 neighbors, which means there's a variety of diplomatic relations for me to interact with

Hmm...so then does that mean "neighbor" only counts if there's a hyperlane connecting your empire to theirs and not 'borders touching'?

If so, ya, I usually only have one neighbor. Typically the "rebirth empires" (if you will) that form out of the Overlord empire's collapse - these are not the vassal empires.

In my unmodded plays, I had usually only two empires with direct hyperlanes to me, as well.

 

[Troyen]

Yes, a neighbor is adjacent to you, either via hyperlane or wormhole (or gateway, but outside of l-gates, hostile neighbors can't use your gateway so it doesn't count).